D&D 5E GWM, SS, CEx: updated!

[clearstream]

I will. Just adding a couple more monsters and double checking my logs.

But the simulation tried to cover aspects that usually get glossed over including knocking prone, critical hits, being attacked by the monster, second wind, action surges, etc, etc, etc. In other words, while it's a narrow slice (dwarven fighter, same beginning stats, no magic or other aide) I did try to make it an accurate slice.

Excellent - am looking forward to more numbers to play with Where I am right now for 11th level scenarios explained in this thread and elsewhere (and with ongoing thanks to all who pick apart my estimates) is -

Wizard: 20 Int, Evocation, Fire Bolt, Levitate, Fireball, Wall of Force = ~1,680/d
Fighter: GWM, 20 Str, GWF, Precision, G.Sword = ~1,440/d (without GWM = ~1,040/d)
Fighter/Rogue: Sentinel, 18 Dex, 14 Int (GFB), Dueling, Rapier = 1,250/d
Fighter: SS/CEx, 18 Dex, Archery, Precision, H.Xbox = ~1,220/d
Ranger: SS, 18 Dex, Archery, Beast Master, Longbow = ~1,010/d
Fighter: SM, 20 Dex, Dueling, Precision, Longsword = ~1,000/d
Fighter: Sentinel, 20 Dex, Dueling, Rapier = 1000/d

I think SS is doing too much, especially compared with duelists. OTOH Wizard beats all. That resets my thinking a bit...

 

[TwoSix]

Anyway more numbers later. But feel free to let me know how my log shows how I f'ed up the fight. Please.

Looks like your total damage variable isn't getting cleared if the fighter hits twice in a round, see how the fighter hits for 54 (28 from attack 1, plus another 26 from attack 2) in round 1.6. Also occurs in 2.3.

Not sure if you're logging it, but you might want to record the average of the d20 rolls across all 1000 sims, just to make sure you're not getting any wacky randomness.

 

[TwoSix]

I think what TwoSix meant was: pretend GWM doesn't exist and see where fighter damage is, then figure out a new feat (or something) that would bring fighters up to your target DPR. He is treating that as TWO steps during theorycrafting.

FrogReaver (if I have this right) was focused on what happens next when you actually change the rules: delete GWM, insert new Feat, at the same time.

Pretty much. Doesn't even need to be a feat to correct, maybe simply a new class feature or two.

 

[TwoSix]

I think SS is doing too much, especially compared with duelists. OTOH Wizard beats all. That resets my thinking a bit...

Just remember if anyone argues that "Wizards won't do that much damage normally, they have to cast all these utility spells!", you beat down that argument down hard. Being all to trade out top-level damage for top-level utility isn't some kind of drawback, that's the king of all bonuses.

 

[clearstream]

One log sample and the results of the different styles vs a troll with the fighter at 10th level. Go through the log and tell me if I did something wrong (and I just added the Troll last night). I'm a developer, so it's not real until it's been through QA.

The one thing I haven't simulated is multiple monsters so that the bonus attack for GWM could come into play. I was going to add it, but considering how poorly they do on my simulation I don't think it would change overall numbers much.

The results after 1,000 simulated fights. This is pretty typical, although the shield and two weapon are frequently much closer.
[TABLE="width: 500"]
[TR]
[TD]level[/TD]
[TD]style[/TD]
[TD]monster[/TD]
[TD]PC wins[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]GreatWeapon[/TD]
[TD]Troll[/TD]
[TD]66.65%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]Shield[/TD]
[TD]Troll[/TD]
[TD]83%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]Two-Weapon[/TD]
[TD]Troll[/TD]
[TD]88.02%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

View attachment 89562

Anyway more numbers later. But feel free to let me know how my log shows how I f'ed up the fight. Please.

A single target with a lot of HP that regenerates is a setup: the fight was rigged! Also, level 10 Fighter? Okay, let's go with that, but a few suggestions -

Can you give the Fighter plate armour (AC 18)
If you can, try a version with GWF (use Greatsword, reroll 1s and 2s) and a version with Defense (AC 19)
Dump stat should be Int, right? Not Dex (stat line could be 15+2+1+2, 14, 15+2+1, 8, 10, 8) so +2 Initiative instead of -1 (or go with 12 Dex and avoid being so unprepossessing)

 

[Oofta]

Looks like your total damage variable isn't getting cleared if the fighter hits twice in a round, see how the fighter hits for 54 (28 from attack 1, plus another 26 from attack 2) in round 1.6. Also occurs in 2.3.

Not sure if you're logging it, but you might want to record the average of the d20 rolls across all 1000 sims, just to make sure you're not getting any wacky randomness.

Awesome! I've been looking at this stuff too long, I'll fix it tonight.

I've logged the numbers, I'll attach those files as well.

 

[Oofta]

A single target with a lot of HP that regenerates is a setup: the fight was rigged! Also, level 10 Fighter? Okay, let's go with that, but a few suggestions -

Can you give the Fighter plate armour (AC 18)
If you can, try a version with GWF (use Greatsword, reroll 1s and 2s) and a version with Defense (AC 19)
Dump stat should be Int, right? Not Dex (stat line could be 15+2+1+2, 14, 15+2+1, 8, 10, 8) so +2 Initiative instead of -1 (or go with 12 Dex and avoid being so unprepossessing)

Hey, the drow that kidnapped the poor PC and set him up in a cage fight don't want to lose their best troll fighter. Of course the match is unfair!

The GWF should be rerolling the 1st 1 or 2. I'll double check the others and crank it up to 11 so my champion gets another attack.

That and my simulation goes from 4-10, chain at level 4 seemed appropriate. I will run with plate tonight and see if it makes a difference. As far as build options ... I dunno. I think most people dump dex before intelligence. Of course there are about a bazillion options. Does the shield fighter have a +1 shield? Does the two-weapon fighter have a set of flame swords? I'm trying to do a narrow but deep slice for now. Maybe someday.

 

[clearstream]

Hey, the drow that kidnapped the poor PC and set him up in a cage fight don't want to lose their best troll fighter. Of course the match is unfair!

The GWF should be rerolling the 1st 1 or 2. I'll double check the others and crank it up to 11 so my champion gets another attack.

That and my simulation goes from 4-10, chain at level 4 seemed appropriate. I will run with plate tonight and see if it makes a difference. As far as build options ... I dunno. I think most people dump dex before intelligence. Of course there are about a bazillion options. Does the shield fighter have a +1 shield? Does the two-weapon fighter have a set of flame swords? I'm trying to do a narrow but deep slice for now. Maybe someday.

Ignore magic items, but it is unrealistic to assume no plate by level 10.

Out of more than a dozen characters in two campaigns, no one has ever dumped Dexterity. Not even the Wizard. It's practically the most valuable stat in 5e! AC (for most characters), Initiative, Dex save (used a lot), Stealth, attack and damage bonuses for ranged and finesse...

 

[Oofta]

Ignore magic items, but it is unrealistic to assume no plate by level 10.

Out of more than a dozen characters in two campaigns, no one has ever dumped Dexterity. Not even the Wizard. It's practically the most valuable stat in 5e! AC (for most characters), Initiative, Dex save (used a lot), Stealth, attack and damage bonuses for ranged and finesse...

Really? No one has dumped dex? It seems really, really common in my experience for anyone wearing heavy armor. It's also easy to modify, I'll run a scenario or two and see if it really matters tonight.

EDIT: If that sounded like a snarky response it wasn't meant to be. I'm honestly surprised, I thought dumping dex if you have heavy armor was the norm.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Yeah I see Dex dumping all the time, too. Mostly paladins and fighters, but sometimes Clerics. Although almost never below 10.