Gygax's views on OGL

[Walter_J]

I gave one example of OGL bringing new blood to the industry as well as a couple of other folks' posts.

OGL not improving the system? Probably has already. The folks at WotC don't live in a vacuum. I'd bet that some of the .5 upgrade and some from Unearthed Arcana at least had some inspiration from something published by 3rd party companies.

Thanks,
Rich

By your example, the OGL didn't bring someone new into the hobby, a game based on some books your brother liked got him into the hobby. The game could have been done using any system, and your brother would have still been interested. The d20 logo itself only means something to those who already know about the D&D/d20 relationship. Let's say someone puts out a d20 Lord of the Rings Game. Lots of Lord of the Rings fans would be interested in checking it out. The d20 logo would only attract the attention of those who already play d20 games. So, the popularity of Lord of the Rings brings in the new gamers, not d20.

Is there an OGL in the 3.5 core books? (I honestly wouldn't know). As far as I know, though, Unearthed Arcana is a book of optional material and not a core book.

I understand your points. My point is that the OGL/d20 wasn't created to attract new players or "improve" D&D, so the questions were going into areas that had very little to do with the OGL.

BTW, I'm a big fan of d20/OGL. I've spent WAY more money on "third party" products that on WotC books (which isn't hard).

 

[rgard]

I'm glad to hear your brother is enjoying the hobby, but again, ten years ago you'd just have a John Carter game, possibly with a Tarzan and Hollow Earth spinoff, all of which would not be based on d20. There were a bazillion and five such games in the 80s.

I'm sure the similarity of game mechanics made the transition to playing other settings easier and more fun. But, with all due respect, this is not an OGL thing.

Curiously, who published that John Carter game? There was the SPI version which IIRC was more a board game and there was a Heritage (maybe them) wargame. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I do not think there was an RPG of ERB's Barsoom...if wrong...I'll go look for it on Ebay!

As for the OGL connection, I'll peel it back a layer for you. The people who were to publish the John Carter game were using the OGL. I read about it in a yahoo group devoted to d20 sci fi. If I hadn't read about it there, I wouldn't have told my brother about it. And if I hadn't read Sean Reynold's conversions via a link from this forum (which has a decided OGL bent to it), I wouldn't have told my brother about that either.

That's the chain of events. Without my interest in Sean's site and without my interest in that yahoo group (both interests based in my liking of the OGL), my brother would not have known about the OGL and hence would not have learned the game.

Thanks,
Rich

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

In this, I wonder if he's consider the fact that with the advent of the OGL WotC no longer controls D&D. The license is free, and in perpetuity. It cannot be withdrawn. WotC gave away one of their greatest assets, and if they start ing up D&D, other people can pick up the slack. There's now no reason the things that happened to TSR in the 90's should happen again.

Actually I'm not sure if this is true. First, I thought there was a way for the OGL to be revoked, and second, WotC did not lose control of D&D since they are the only ones who can make changes to the SRD, and third if they really wanted to, WotC could probably produce a 4e without an OGL if they wished and move on (although it would have to be a VERY dramatic change). Of course if they cannot recsind the OGL (I'm no lawyer, so I really cannot say what they can and cannot do with the contract that is the OGL), they may not be able to prevent people from continuing to make products for 3e (and 3.5), but would people want to continue playing 3e or would they want to move on to a new edition?

 

[rowport]

The OGL is like any free market in real life, a slew of junk and crap hits the streets, and those companies are weeded out while the good ones remain.

I don't care if there are a million bad books out there for d20.. I am perfectly capable of reading reviews and examing books first to only buy those good books, and the ones that appeal to me.

Otter hit it right on the head, here. Great post. If you do not like the product, do not buy the product. Problem solved. No harm came to the consumer as a result of the OGL.

I also recognize the irony of GG's position as vehemently anti-OGL, yet publishing d20 products. Hmm.

 

[rgard]

By your example, the OGL didn't bring someone new into the hobby, a game based on some books your brother liked got him into the hobby. The game could have been done using any system, and your brother would have still been interested. The d20 logo itself only means something to those who already know about the D&D/d20 relationship. Let's say someone puts out a d20 Lord of the Rings Game. Lots of Lord of the Rings fans would be interested in checking it out. The d20 logo would only attract the attention of those who already play d20 games. So, the popularity of Lord of the Rings brings in the new gamers, not d20.

Is there an OGL in the 3.5 core books? (I honestly wouldn't know). As far as I know, though, Unearthed Arcana is a book of optional material and not a core book.

I understand your points. My point is that the OGL/d20 wasn't created to attract new players or "improve" D&D, so the questions were going into areas that had very little to do with the OGL.

BTW, I'm a big fan of d20/OGL. I've spent WAY more money on "third party" products that on WotC books (which isn't hard).

Hi Walter, please see my previous post responding to BiggusGeekus' post. My brother probably would not have found out about a non-OGL/non-D20 version of a Barsoom RPG. His half-orc died 26 years ago real time and that was his only experience with RPGs until 2 years ago.

I think we are also missing the fact that there are probably many current and would be publishers out there that go ahead and use the OGL as it saves time and money with respect to designing and playtesting the game. You don't have to devote any time to designing the character generation process or figuring out XP awards for CRs or designing an XP table or designing the system you use for attributes...and you don't have to playtest these facets of the game either. It's done for you. You can focus on your milieu specific aspects of the game.

Yea, I shouldn't have killed my brother's first PC then.

Thanks,
Rich

 

[Derulbaskul]

I read Gary's opinion as the point of view of a person who is a creative (and an incredibly creative one at that!), not a businessman. The OGL was a business decision, not a creative decision and, as a business decision, it has been very, very successful.

 

[Henry]

Actually I'm not sure if this is true. First, I thought there was a way for the OGL to be revoked, and second, WotC did not lose control of D&D since they are the only ones who can make changes to the SRD, and third if they really wanted to, WotC could probably produce a 4e without an OGL if they wished and move on (although it would have to be a VERY dramatic change). Of course if they cannot recsind the OGL (I'm no lawyer, so I really cannot say what they can and cannot do with the contract that is the OGL), they may not be able to prevent people from continuing to make products for 3e (and 3.5), but would people want to continue playing 3e or would they want to move on to a new edition?

As a matter of illustrating points, and these have been debated by quite a few actual copyright lawyers on these boards:

1. The Open Gaming License as written cannot be rescinded, and users cannot be forced into a version they do not wish to use. (The specific clause is "9. Updating the License: Wizards or its designated Agents may publish updated versions of this License. You may use any authorized version of this License to copy, modify and distribute any Open Game Content originally distributed under any version of this License.")

2. They CAN rescind the d20 System Trademark License, or can add so many unworkable restrictions that it is no longer profitable to use. So any book could simply drop the compatibility messages, and become a book of d20 rules; they just couldn't say d20 by name in the book or its press releases.

WotC could indeed make a CLOSED 4th edition; on the positive side, the game community will have an ever-evolving set of rules that can split totally off of the parent, and never be quashed. In that instance, very little has changed from before 1999, it's just that there will be an actual license that material can be released under, WITHOUT fear of lawsuit.

 

[Henry]

1. The Open Gaming License as written cannot be rescinded, and users cannot be forced into a version they do not wish to use. (The specific clause is "9. Updating the License: Wizards or its designated Agents may publish updated versions of this License. You may use any authorized version of this License to copy, modify and distribute any Open Game Content originally distributed under any version of this License.")

Interestingly enough, this would have cost me one of my 10 uses per 10 days, if I had copied that from a DRM PDF.

 

[tauton_ikhnos]

Here are the relevant questions about the OGL and its place in the marketplace, IMO:

1. Does WotC make more, less or the same profit?

This is an important point, because regardless of whether the quality of material improves, if it is a bad business decision, it won't be repeated in the future. The answer, unfortunately, is a resounding "We Don't Know". It hasn't finished playing out yet.

However, there is some indication that the model works at the small scale. It certainly worked for Fudge, which would have been a far more obscure system without this methodology.

2. Is there more, less, or the same amount of high quality material?

Easy answer: there is more. There is exactly as much quality material as WotC is capable of publishing, plus whatever additional gems were published via the OGL. Of course, if it isn't profitable to WotC, then this will not be repeated.

3. Is it easier, harder or the same to FIND that quality material?

Not so easy: On the one hand, you can buy only WotC stuff. Plenty of people do, and that is exactly as difficult to do as it was prior to the OGL. In that sense, Gary Gygax is completely off his rocker - anyone who decides to accept WotC's quality control is perfectly capable of doing so.

The difference is that there's now more than just WotC's narrow little world available. Picking the quality stuff there requires more picking and choosing, however.

But to badly mangle a WotC quote: Options, not restrictions. Few people complain about the existence of non-IBM laptops as part of their choice. Few people complain that GE is not the only maker of lightbulbs. People have the choice of going only with the known source of quality, or they can taste the foods of other cultures as well.

4. Has the quality of the game improved, worsened, or remained the same?

Could be argued either way. Personally, I've never liked Gygax's view of house rules, and basically, there's more open communication of possible house rules out there now. It's called evolution - the good rules survive.

 

[Spatula]

The main one being the lack of quality control.

Well, it's not like everything that WOTC has released has been of high quality (except, possibly, production-wise), so I don't see this as a compelling argument. There's lots of d20 crap out there. Some of it has come straight from the source.

While it gives aspiring designers to make product for open game rulesets, the original creators of the ruleset cannot review and approve if the game itself would work well with the core ruleset seamlessly.

The "original creators" are for the most part no longer with WOTC, so they couldn't do that even if there was some sort of qualification process for d20 books in place. But hey, thanks to the OGL, the original creators (and other veteran RPG writers) are free to publish more material for the game if they want, something they couldn't have done back in the day.

If the OGL had been around in the 80's, Gygax could have continued working on and publishing for the game he helped create even after being forced out, without giving one cent to TSR. Perhaps if that had happened, he would be inclined to look more kindly on the concept...