Half-Celestial +2?

[The Souljourner]

Screw half celestial... become a Saint. They're actually better than half celestials in a lot of ways, but with slightly fewer attribute bonuses.. and it's only +2 LA. Pg. 185-186 of BoED. Fast healing = 1/2 hit dice, insight bonus to AC equal to wisdom bonus, immune to acid, cold, electricity, petrification, protective aura like an angel... +2 con, wis, and +4 cha.... crazy good.

-The Souljourner

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Screw half celestial... become a Saint. They're actually better than half celestials in a lot of ways, but with slightly fewer attribute bonuses.. and it's only +2 LA. Pg. 185-186 of BoED. Fast healing = 1/2 hit dice, insight bonus to AC equal to wisdom bonus, immune to acid, cold, electricity, petrification, protective aura like an angel... +2 con, wis, and +4 cha.... crazy good.

I actually noticed this as I was double-checking the Half-Celestial info. It is, as you say, crazy-good. The only drawback is that I'm not sure my character is, rp-wise, Saint material. I had had been thinking that he'd gradually become infused with divine energy, thus metamorphosing him into a Half-Celestial (though human by birth). Being a Saint is...different. RPwise, I just don't think my PC is...significant...enough for that.

Still, it does say something about the LA of the Half-Celestial. Or perhaps I can suggest the Saint template for my PC, but with different flavor-text, so to speak...

 

[FireLance]

I do recall it was mentioned that the LA for the Saint template was lower than it should be because it was meant as a reward.

Anyway, I would just like to add that the half-celestial template synergizes very well with the paladin class in my view, so LA +4 is not excessive. Consider the following:

Strength +4 means that you are attacking at a net -2 to hit and +2 to damage for melee attacks. If you're wielding a one-handed weapon, it's the equivalent of power attacking for 2.

Consititution +4 means that your hit points will eventually catch up to (and may even exceed) those of a regular paladin. In addition, the bonus to Fortitude exactly offsets the reduction in base saves.

Dexterity +2 may be less useful, especially if you're up against your maximum Dexterity bonus for armor. The bonus to ranged attacks only partly offsets the BAB loss, and the bonus to Reflex saves offsets the reduction in base saves most but not all of the time. The only real edge is a small bonus to initiative checks.

Intelligence +2 also means that skill points will eventually catch up to those of a regular paladin, although you will still be behind in terms of maximum ranks.

Wisdom +4 means your will save will be better than that of a regular paladin most of the time, and equal the rest of the time. The extra bonus spells will only partly offset the loss of paladin spells (but then, you have all those spell-like abilities).

Charisma +4 is the real bonus. When smiting evil, you will hit as well as a regular paladin, although at a net -2 to damage (-1 if using a two-handed weapon). Your lay on hands ability will also catch up to that of a regular paladin, and your save bonus will always be better (Constitution, Dexterity and Wisdom increases also help here).

The extra smite evil means that you can smite evil as often as or more often than a regular paladin (although you don't get to add your charisma bonus to hit - something that has always bugged me about this ability).

In addition, you get wings, resistance to acid 10, cold 10 and electricity 10, damage reduction 10/magic and spell resistance HD+10. I do concede that many of these can be duplicated or made irrelevant with the right equipment, though.

The final advantage to the half-celestial template is a whole load of spell-like abilities from Protection from Evil to Holy Smite to Holy Aura to Mass Charm Moster to Summon Monster IX to Resurrection.

All in all, I would say that the half-celestial template is about balanced at LA +4 for a paladin. Other classes may not find that it synergises as well.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I do recall it was mentioned that the LA for the Saint template was lower than it should be because it was meant as a reward.

This makes sense. Just the fast healing alone is...impressive.

Anyway, I would just like to add that the half-celestial template synergizes very well with the paladin class in my view, so LA +4 is not excessive. Consider the following:

I have taken a close look at the Half-Celestial's potential. Let me address some of your points. Keep in mind that my responses are with regards to my specific paladin. Other paladins in other campaigns with other attributes may synergize differently with the template.

Strength +4 means that you are attacking at a net -2 to hit and +2 to damage for melee attacks. If you're wielding a one-handed weapon, it's the equivalent of power attacking for 2.

It also means waiting an extra 4 levels for each new iterative attack. Also, Power Attacking for 2 is very often disadvantageous. Especially if you are less likely to hit which, with -4 BAB, you are. So overall, this aspect of the template, stacked against a straight paladin, seems detrimental to me. For the record, my pally is sword-and-board.

Consititution +4 means that your hit points will eventually catch up to (and may even exceed) those of a regular paladin. In addition, the bonus to Fortitude exactly offsets the reduction in base saves.

I have a 16 con now, so losing 4 HD means losing 4d10+12 hp, average 33 hp. And that is assuming my paladin doesn't get a con-boosting item (which he will). When he does, the loss of hp is actually worse, since the con-boosting item is less-effective, having fewer HD to effect. Since the con gives a bonus of +2 hp per HD, I'll have to be 20th-level ECL before I break even on this. So a negative for pretty much the PC's entire career.

Dexterity +2 may be less useful, especially if you're up against your maximum Dexterity bonus for armor. The bonus to ranged attacks only partly offsets the BAB loss, and the bonus to Reflex saves offsets the reduction in base saves most but not all of the time. The only real edge is a small bonus to initiative checks.

My PC has, indeed, already hit max dex on armor. He's hardly ever touched his short bow, and the +1 to init gives him a grand total of +2. This is an infinitesimal bonus, IMO.

Intelligence +2 also means that skill points will eventually catch up to those of a regular paladin, although you will still be behind in terms of maximum ranks.

Not only will I be behind in max-ranks, but the campaign in question is a combat-heavy dungeon crawl. So what usefulness +1 skill points per level might have for a paladin is even less so.

Wisdom +4 means your will save will be better than that of a regular paladin most of the time, and equal the rest of the time. The extra bonus spells will only partly offset the loss of paladin spells

So again, at +4 LA, the paladin's spellcasting (for what it's worth) is worse. The Will Save bonus is really the only useful aspect of the Wis bonus, but with Divine Grace my paladin already has a very good will save. Still, this is a definite advantage. I'd say functionally close to a free Iron Will feat.

Charisma +4 is the real bonus. When smiting evil, you will hit as well as a regular paladin, although at a net -2 to damage (-1 if using a two-handed weapon). Your lay on hands ability will also catch up to that of a regular paladin,

The charisma is definitely one of the best perks of the class for a paladin. However, note that the Half-Celestial paladin's Lay on Hands only "catches up to" but does not surpass the straight paladin's. With Divine Grace and Divine Might (which my paladin has), any ability that grants a bonus to charisma is good, no doubt.

The extra smite evil means that you can smite evil as often as or more often than a regular paladin (although you don't get to add your charisma bonus to hit - something that has always bugged me about this ability).

Holy Smite is decidedly worse than the paladin's Smite Evil ability, for exactly the reason you mention: no cha bonus to hit. So the Half-Celestial loses ground again.

In addition, you get wings, resistance to acid 10, cold 10 and electricity 10, damage reduction 10/magic and spell resistance HD+10. I do concede that many of these can be duplicated or made irrelevant with the right equipment, though.

These are all very nice abilities. The Spell Resistance in particular. Although it's not incredibly good for paladins in particular, since Divine Grace already gives paladins a fantastic defense against magic (my saves are very nice), SR is never something to make light of.

The final advantage to the half-celestial template is a whole load of spell-like abilities from Protection from Evil to Holy Smite to Holy Aura to Mass Charm Moster to Summon Monster IX to Resurrection.

Even with a +2 LA, I'll never see Ressurrection unless the game goes into epic levels, which I doubt. And while the later spell-like abilities are very useful, at 1/day I don't think they're overpowering. Still, this is the meat of the class, the reason it's worth any LA, whether it be +2 or +4, and I'm not denying that I like the idea of throwing around Dispel Evil or Holy Aura.

All in all, I would say that the half-celestial template is about balanced at LA +4 for a paladin. Other classes may not find that it synergises as well.

As always, FireLance, your opinion is insightful and well-written. In this case, though, I respectfully disagree.

In nearly every area you mentioned, the Half-Celestial paladin is actually worse-off than the straight paladin. Melee to hit and damage: worse. Hit points: worse. Spellcasting: worse. Smiting: worse. Lay on Hands: equal. Saves: equal. On the plus side, the Half-Celestial gains 3 energy resistances, SR, some bonus stats (most of which are subsumed in the loss of class levels), and some spell-like abilities.

Again, perhaps in some campaigns a +4 LA is a good deal. But for me, I don't think so. At +2 LA, though, it's looking good. I may definitely have to talk to my DM about the possibility of taking it at around 10th-level or so.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Also, Power Attacking for 2 is very often disadvantageous. Especially if you are less likely to hit which, with -4 BAB, you are.

Uh, you missed his point.

You're 'the equivalent of Power Attacking for two' with equal BAB.

As in, your BAB is four points less, but your Str bonus is two points more, so you're effectively two down on the full attack bonus, not two down on the attack-bonus-less-four.

I was quite happy to trade four levels for the 3E Half-Cel benefits... but then, I was playing a Cha-twinked character, abusing 3E Divine Shield and the Tome and Blood Share Spells rules at the time I think my worst save was about a +29, from memory.

It was a level 20 PbEM game that never got very far... I don't think the DM really had any concept of what 20th level characters were capable of.

-Hyp.

 

[Bryin]

thenonce you are at the level of paladin you want, switch to another class like monk (dont have my PHB book on me at the moment but i think monk is a lawful class).

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Uh, you missed his point.

You're 'the equivalent of Power Attacking for two' with equal BAB.

As in, your BAB is four points less, but your Str bonus is two points more, so you're effectively two down on the full attack bonus, not two down on the attack-bonus-less-four.

-Hyp.

Ah. I see what you're saying, though I still think it's a disadvantage. At least, it's been touted as one in most of the Monkey Grip threads I've read around here.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Ah. I see what you're saying, though I still think it's a disadvantage. At least, it's been touted as one in most of the Monkey Grip threads I've read around here.

Oh, I don't disagree. But it just seemed you thought it was worse than what he was suggesting

-Hyp.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Oh, I don't disagree. But it just seemed you thought it was worse than what he was suggesting

-Hyp.

And you'd be right about that. Thanks for the clarification. I'd love to hear your take on the +2/+4 LA Half-Celestial in general, though.

 

[jabberwocky]

In nearly every area you mentioned, the Half-Celestial paladin is actually worse-off than the straight paladin. Melee to hit and damage: worse. Hit points: worse. Spellcasting: worse. Smiting: worse. Lay on Hands: equal. Saves: equal. On the plus side, the Half-Celestial gains 3 energy resistances, SR, some bonus stats (most of which are subsumed in the loss of class levels), and some spell-like abilities.

Again, perhaps in some campaigns a +4 LA is a good deal. But for me, I don't think so. At +2 LA, though, it's looking good. I may definitely have to talk to my DM about the possibility of taking it at around 10th-level or so.

But at +2, the half celestial is better than the straight paladin in almost every area. Melee to hit is the same, damage is better. Two levels behind on iterative attacks, but significantly better at divine feats. Hit points are better at level 8 and beyond. Lay on Hands is equal at mid levels and better beyond (depends on relative scores - with base 18, the half-celestial is better at level 7, with base 14 scores, the half-celestial is better at level 5). Saves are better for the celestial across the board by 2-4 points, depending on relative levels and breakpoints. Smiting is +2 to hit, -2 damage, though part of the time with one less paladin smite, but with an extra smite from the template (but not quite as good) - so slightly worse. Spellcasting is off by two levels, or one effective caster level - slightly worse, but vastly surpassed by the spell-like abiltities, which the straight paladin can't get anywhere near matching. The three energy resistances, damage reduction, SR, flight, natural armor, and poison save bonus are all just added power to something that's already better than the straight paladin.

As a +2, I would play a Half-celestial paladin happily, even without the spell-like abilities, wings, and SR. At a +3, I would think they were balanced, even without the spell-like abilities. With the SLA, I would never allow them at less than a +4 for a paladin. Other classes would maybe get a reduction in the LA, especially casters, but in my opinion, the template is just too good for a paladin otherwise.