Half-Celestial +2?

[Lord Pendragon]

But at +2, the half celestial is better than the straight paladin in almost every area. Melee to hit is the same, damage is better. Two levels behind on iterative attacks, but significantly better at divine feats. Hit points are better at level 8 and beyond. Lay on Hands is equal at mid levels and better beyond (depends on relative scores - with base 18, the half-celestial is better at level 7, with base 14 scores, the half-celestial is better at level 5). Saves are better for the celestial across the board by 2-4 points, depending on relative levels and breakpoints. Smiting is +2 to hit, -2 damage, though part of the time with one less paladin smite, but with an extra smite from the template (but not quite as good) - so slightly worse. Spellcasting is off by two levels, or one effective caster level - slightly worse, but vastly surpassed by the spell-like abiltities, which the straight paladin can't get anywhere near matching. The three energy resistances, damage reduction, SR, flight, natural armor, and poison save bonus are all just added power to something that's already better than the straight paladin.

Hmm. You may be right. I'm trying to figure out why what you've said doesn't change the fact that I think the whole deal isn't game-breaking. Perhaps it's because paladin's gain hardly anything after level 10. Or perhaps it's because there are no good paladin PrCs, which are generally "better" than their single-classed counterparts, and this is, in essense, what I'm trying to do with the template...use it as my paladin's prestige class. Still, you make a very good point.

Other classes would maybe get a reduction in the LA, especially casters, but in my opinion, the template is just too good for a paladin otherwise.

I'm not sure that you should adjust something's LA based on the class taking it. Still, that's a side-point to the main discussion.

 

[Antoine]

The flight that some people seem to believe worth +2 LA (!!) does not strike me as particularly powerful.

From what I remember reading about LAs (articles or Savage Species), flight would probably be +1 LA.
I currently play a wingless half-celestial elf and our game group settled for +3 LA.

 

[FireLance]

As always, FireLance, your opinion is insightful and well-written. In this case, though, I respectfully disagree.

Thank you for the compliment . I still think the half-celestial template is balanced for a paladin at LA +4, though, and I hope I may be able persuade you if I restructure my arguments slightly. Let's look at four basic areas: offense, defense, spells, and other abilities.

1. Offense
The advantage in offense probably goes to the normal paladin. In a normal melee attack, the half-celestial is less accurate but does more damage (as mentioned, the equivalent of power attacking for 2). When smiting evil, the half-celestial is as accurate, but does less damage. Divine Might helps offset this as the half-celestial can use it more times a day and does more damage each time. The half-celestial also gets the same number of smite evil attempts (or one more), but one is the less accurate racial ability. In ranged combat, the half-celestial loses out. The half-celestial also gets his iterative attacks more slowly.

2. Defense
Here, the advantage probably goes to the half-celestial. He gets +1 natural armor and better saves due to higher Charisma, Constitution, Dexterity and Wisdom. He is also an outsider, which means he is not affected by spells such as Charm Person and Hold Person. He usually loses out in terms of hit points, especially if he is low-level or has a high Constitution score (see attached excel file). However, this should be offset against his damage reduction/magic and resistance to acid, cold and electricity. Unless he is always in combat with enemies that can penetrate his damage reduction, his hit points may go further than those of a normal paladin. In addition, he gets spell resistance.

3. Spells
Again, the advantage probably goes to the half-celestial. At low levels, he gets access to more (but fixed) spells such as Daylight (at will), Protection from Evil (3/day), and Bless (ECL 5), and Aid (ECL 7) through his spell-like abilities. One level after a normal paladin gets access to 2nd-level spells, the half-celestial gets Cure Serious Wounds and Neutralize Poison (ECL 9). When a normal paladin gets access to 3rd-level spells, the half-celestial gets Holy Smite (ECL 11). He also gets Dispel Evil (ECL 13) before a normal paladin gets access to 4th-level spells. At higher levels, the half-celestial generally gets one less spell per day of each level compared to a normal paladin, but he also gets access to Holy Word (ECL 15), Holy Aura (3/day) (ECL 17) and Mass Charm Monster (ECL 19). His caster level for his spell-like abilities is also generally higher than a normal paladin's caster level for his paladin spells. The save DCs for his spell-like abilities are also Charisma-based.

4. Other abilities
Here, the advantage is probably to the normal paladin. A half-celestial's special mount is usually weaker than a normal paladin's, as is his ability to turn undead. The amount of damage he can cure with lay on hands may also be lower if he is low-level or has a high Charisma score (see attached excel file). The number of skill points he has may similarly be lower if he is low-level or has a high Intelligence score (see attached excel file), and his maximum skill ranks will be lower. To balance this, the half-celestial can fly.

All in all, if your focus is on offense or the paladin's class abilities, you may be better off playing a normal paladin. However, if your focus is on defense or spells, a half-celestial paladin is probably the better choice. As such, I would say the half-celestial template is balanced at LA +4 for a paladin.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

FireLance, your post is very pursuasive, however, there are a few more points I'd like you to consider.

1. Offense. I'm not sure you've given the regular paladin as much weight in this category as you should, even though you've given him the "win." The most serious drawback here is the iterative attack progression. Most paladins (and certainly my paladin) are front-line tanks, and waiting 4 levels for each iterative attack is a major drawback. 4 out of every 5 levels, the half-celestial paladin will have one less attack than the regular one. Also, you seem to be including Divine Might as a mitigating factor for the loss in damage from smiting, but we can't count on every paladin having that feat.

2. Defense. I agree. The Half-Celestial is definitely better defensively, even at a +4 LA.

3. Spells. This is a tough category. Some of the spells are definitely very good. However, I think it's important to note that many of the half-celestial's spell-like abilities are also available to the regular paladin, even if at a later level. Protection from Evil, Bless, and Cure Serious Wounds are all spells that the regular paladin has access to. Granted, having access to them a bit earlier is an advantage, but not a huge one.

4. Other abilities. You've balanced the regular paladin's other abilities with the half-celestial's ability to fly, but as I've stated earlier, this is nearly a non-ability. The regular paladin can choose a flying mount and fly anyway, plus have his mount be significantly stronger.

In the end, I think that the Half-Celestial may be balanced at +4 LA if taken by a fighter. He loses 2 feats (of 11), takes the BAB hit, and in exchange gains a huge boost in abilities, none of which he had any access to before. In the case of the paladin, many of the half-celestial abilities duplicate those he already has: access to healing, detect evil, holy smite, etc. The only real synergy is in flavor (a paladin that is part-angel is a very nice concept,) and the cha bonus, which is only useful to a small subset of D&D classes.

 

[FireLance]

FireLance, your post is very pursuasive, however, there are a few more points I'd like you to consider.

Sure .

1. Offense. I'm not sure you've given the regular paladin as much weight in this category as you should, even though you've given him the "win." The most serious drawback here is the iterative attack progression. Most paladins (and certainly my paladin) are front-line tanks, and waiting 4 levels for each iterative attack is a major drawback. 4 out of every 5 levels, the half-celestial paladin will have one less attack than the regular one. Also, you seem to be including Divine Might as a mitigating factor for the loss in damage from smiting, but we can't count on every paladin having that feat.

I admit that I do not have a lot of experience with high-level fighter types and I may be under-valuing the iterative attacks as a result. From my purely mechanical evaluation, the second iterative attack (at -5 to hit) is still useful, but the third and fourth (at -10 and -15 to hit respectively) are likely to miss too often to have an effect. I am curious to know if it works out different in actual play.

3. Spells. This is a tough category. Some of the spells are definitely very good. However, I think it's important to note that many of the half-celestial's spell-like abilities are also available to the regular paladin, even if at a later level. Protection from Evil, Bless, and Cure Serious Wounds are all spells that the regular paladin has access to. Granted, having access to them a bit earlier is an advantage, but not a huge one.

The disparity in paladin spells between a half-celestial and a normal paladin starts out fairly low (one 1st-level spell at ECL 5, assuming Wisdom less than 20) and tops out at about two 3rd-level spells and 2 4th-level spells at ECL 20 (assuming the half-celestial only gets an extra 1st-level and 2nd-level spell from his higher Wisdom). The half-celestial lacks flexibility in terms of spells he can prepare, but makes up for it in number. At ECL 14, when a regular paladin gets 4th-level spells, he has Daylight (at will), Protection from Evil (3/day), Bless, Cure Serious Wounds, Neutralize Poison, Remove Disease and Dispel Evil. These spell-like abilities all duplicate existing paladin spells or abilities. In addition, he gets spell-like abilities which duplicate spells not on the paladin spell list, namely: Aid (ECL 7), Holy Smite (ECL 11), Holy Word (ECL 15), Holy Aura (3/day, ECL 17) and Mass Charm Monster (ECL 19).

4. Other abilities. You've balanced the regular paladin's other abilities with the half-celestial's ability to fly, but as I've stated earlier, this is nearly a non-ability. The regular paladin can choose a flying mount and fly anyway, plus have his mount be significantly stronger.

Sorry, bad choice of words. I meant that the ability to fly is the only advantage a half-celestial has in this area, not that it was balanced against the other abilities.

In the end, I think that the Half-Celestial may be balanced at +4 LA if taken by a fighter. He loses 2 feats (of 11), takes the BAB hit, and in exchange gains a huge boost in abilities, none of which he had any access to before. In the case of the paladin, many of the half-celestial abilities duplicate those he already has: access to healing, detect evil, holy smite, etc. The only real synergy is in flavor (a paladin that is part-angel is a very nice concept,) and the cha bonus, which is only useful to a small subset of D&D classes.

I agree with your assessment on the half-celestial fighter, but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the half-celestial paladin, then .

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I admit that I do not have a lot of experience with high-level fighter types and I may be under-valuing the iterative attacks as a result. From my purely mechanical evaluation, the second iterative attack (at -5 to hit) is still useful, but the third and fourth (at -10 and -15 to hit respectively) are likely to miss too often to have an effect. I am curious to know if it works out different in actual play.

This is only true if you're fighting one, very tough opponent. Against a larger number of less powerful opponents, those iterative attacks are going to have a very serious effect. And against a single, powerful opponent, the paladin can always choose to apply his Smite Evil to an iterative attack, giving him several attacks with good chance to hit.

The disparity in paladin spells between a half-celestial and a normal paladin starts out fairly low (one 1st-level spell at ECL 5, assuming Wisdom less than 20) and tops out at about two 3rd-level spells and 2 4th-level spells at ECL 20 (assuming the half-celestial only gets an extra 1st-level and 2nd-level spell from his higher Wisdom). The half-celestial lacks flexibility in terms of spells he can prepare, but makes up for it in number. At ECL 14, when a regular paladin gets 4th-level spells, he has Daylight (at will), Protection from Evil (3/day), Bless, Cure Serious Wounds, Neutralize Poison, Remove Disease and Dispel Evil. These spell-like abilities all duplicate existing paladin spells or abilities. In addition, he gets spell-like abilities which duplicate spells not on the paladin spell list, namely: Aid (ECL 7), Holy Smite (ECL 11), Holy Word (ECL 15), Holy Aura (3/day, ECL 17) and Mass Charm Monster (ECL 19).

Right. I consider the spells he couldn't ordinarily gain access to, such as Holy Word and Holy Aura, to be very valuable. The spells that he gains that duplicate paladin spells are mostly redundant, and so I give them less weight when considering the balance of the template as a whole.

I agree with your assessment on the half-celestial fighter, but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the half-celestial paladin, then .

I guess so. Thanks for the discussion, though, you've given me a lot to think about. I still have five levels or so to consider what to suggest/request as a player. If I find my character as a straight paladin to be on the strong side as-is, I'll probably refrain from suggesting it. If I find my paladin of equivalent strength to most other party members, I may suggest the template at a +2 LA, but without the wings (as Hyp mentioned many people seem to find balanced). And if I find my paladin being overwhelmed by the animal growthed, wildshaped druid and her animal companion, the cleric, and the greataxe-wielding fighter, then perhaps I'll just ask for the template as listed in the BoED--a straight +2 LA--and see what happens. Thanks for the discussion, FireLance.

 

[HeavyG]

Page 26-27 of the Book of Exalted Deeds describes the Half-Celestial template applied to a 0HD creature (such as a human), as having an LA of +2.

That table is really weird. Why would higher HD races have a higher ECL adjustment from getting a half-celestial template ? Unless of course the hit dice dependent half celestial abilities depended only on racial HD, but the MM half-celestial counts all hit dice, including class levels. :\

IMO, that first column of the table should read "total hit dice" and not "racial hit dice".

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

That table is really weird. Why would higher HD races have a higher ECL adjustment from getting a half-celestial template ? Unless of course the hit dice dependent half celestial abilities depended only on racial HD, but the MM half-celestial counts all hit dice, including class levels. :\

IMO, that first column of the table should read "total hit dice" and not "racial hit dice".

That seems to be the case, that they're assuming racial HD and not class-based HD. While the half-celestial in the MM 3.5 is a unicorn, the half-friend is a human cleric, and displays that it gets the nifty powers based on class-based HD.

Not that the SLAs are particularly useful. Sort of nice, but not something I'd pay 2 levels for.

Brad