Half-Dragons [Sage Advice]

[kreynolds]

A Half-Dragon loses 4 hit dice because of ECL. As it is, they are losing a lot of power, especially in the HP department. I see no reason to with hold the hit dice increase to their class hit dice.

If you wanna look at it like that, the Tarrasque loses 80 hit die, a chimera loses 15, etc, etc.

But half-dragons don't start off with any hit die, so this is a moot point. It's just a template, not an actual monster/creature. So the template applies to the hit die you already have. I agree that a half-dragon/half-ogre is really nasty, but a half-dragon character is far worse. ECL penalizes you more at low level than anything else, but there is something to be said about a low level character with a breath weapon. So, given all of the half-dragon abilities and strengths, I don't think characters get shafted in any way. Sure, the monsters get more hit die and hit points, but how many monsters do you know of with Whirlwind Attack, Great Cleave, Knockdown, Improved Critical, and have Keen weapons of Speed. Not many. But a half-dragon character gets to have all of that, so they are much tougher in the long run. I see both sides of the argument here, but I have yet to fall one way or the other.

 

[Wolf72]

Except that the Sage appears to be trying to change this after the fact, and he simply can't do that without errata.

The way it reads in the MM, it seems to affect class HD and monster HD, not just monster HD.

Given the fact that being a half dragon is going to cost you 3 levels worth of hit points, I'm inclined to grant the increase to class HD as Monte intended. *shrug*

...hey, how are things handled for the dragon disciple? ... do their HD increase over time or anything like that?

I know it's different because you're applying the abilities later on, where as in most templates you apply in the creation process.


*shrug*: I agree ... (hah! so there SpikeyFreak! ... anyway rules wise you were dead on)

 

[Caliban]

The dragon Disciple get's a HD size increase every few levels.

 

[IceBear]

My take on HD for PC races is that it depends on the training that the PC takes. Thus, a human might have a default HD of 1d8 which becomes 1d12 if he is a barbarian, or only 1d4 if he is a wizard. Thus, if an ogre gets a HD increase, I think the class should to.

IceBear

 

[kreynolds]

My take on HD for PC races is that it depends on the training that the PC takes. Thus, a human might have a default HD of 1d8 which becomes 1d12 if he is a barbarian, or only 1d4 if he is a wizard. Thus, if an ogre gets a HD increase, I think the class should to.

IceBear

Now that's a good way of putting it! Makes sense to me. I'm on board.

 

[SpikeyFreak]

Interesting.

The sage ruled the way I think it should work, but I still think he is wrong.

I think that any template that changes HD type should only change racial HD. Undead, half-dragon, whatever.

The reason I think this is because HD are a class feature. There are VERY few (if any) other instances where a template CHANGES a class feature like this. Plus you have silly things like a shadow gaining a sorcerer level and not getting d12 (undead) hit dice, but a lich gaining a sorcerer level and getting d12 (undead) hit dice.

I'm going to play it the way the sage said to, but I have no illusions about it being what was intended.

--Smug Spikey

 

[kreynolds]

Interesting.

The sage ruled the way I think it should work, but I still think he is wrong.

I think that any template that changes HD type should only change racial HD. Undead, half-dragon, whatever.

The reason I think this is because HD are a class feature. There are VERY few (if any) other instances where a template CHANGES a class feature like this. Plus you have silly things like a shadow gaining a sorcerer level and not getting d12 (undead) hit dice, but a lich gaining a sorcerer level and getting d12 (undead) hit dice.

I'm going to play it the way the sage said to, but I have no illusions about it being what was intended.

--Smug Spikey

That's where I stand too. I fully agree that the template is meant to increase ALL hit die, but I'm not going to run it that way. Besides, what everybody seems to be forgetting is that monsters start off with hit die, players don't, they start with a big fat 0. So naturally, they don't get as much out of the template as a monster. Anyways, I understand both arguments, and I even agree with both, but I'm running the Sage's way, and only cause it feels right too me.

 

[thundershot]

<blink> I e-mailed Sage Advice on this a while back, and David Eckelberry replied that the hit die type changes for the classes as well... Um... Which is supposed to be correct?


Chris

 

[nharwell]

Unfortunately, until MM errata comes out (who knows when?), you'll have to use your best judgement. Remember, although the Sage provides useful clarfications, all statements are simply his opinion unless marked as "official errata" -- and even if it is "errata", you are not obligated to use that rule. I'm sure that many DMs, like me, freely ignore such additions or clarifications to the rules that they disagree with -- especially when we've already been running our games differently without balance problems. For example (to touch on another "hot topic"), when I allow hobgoblin PCs (which I do in some campaigns), I'll never give them an ECL greater then +0 -- I haven't had any balance problems yet, and the revised ECL of +1 seems foolish compared to other ECL +0 and +1 races.

 

[Ristamar]

Hmm, I must be about the only person that likes this ruling (since that's the way I've always used it). There's no way in hell I'd want a template to change anything but racial hit dice. If you start changing class hit dice, it doesn't mesh with the way class levels are added to a creature's monster levels.

In other words, currently, if I give a dragon 10 sorcerer levels, they gain 10d4 hit points on top of their racial base hit points. However, lets ignore that for a moment and instead extrapolate the logic of changing class HD through a template to adding class levels to a creature. You would be giving said dragon 10d12 extra hit points instead of 10d4, an average of 65 hp versus 25 hp. The discrepancy continues to get uglier as you tack on more class levels. Yikes. That's definitely not my cup of tea. That hardly even seems fair to the players.