Half-Dragons [Sage Advice]

[Caliban]

Hmm, I must be about the only person that likes this ruling (since that's the way I've always used it). There's no way in hell I'd want a template to change anything but racial hit dice. If you start changing class hit dice, it doesn't mesh with the way class levels are added to a creature's monster levels.

In other words, currently, if I give a dragon 10 sorcerer levels, they gain 10d4 hit points on top of their racial base hit points. However, lets ignore that for a moment and instead extrapolate the logic of changing class HD through a template to adding class levels to a creature. You would be giving said dragon 10d12 extra hit points instead of 10d4, an average of 65 hp versus 25 hp. The discrepancy continues to get uglier as you tack on more class levels. Yikes. That's definitely not my cup of tea. That hardly even seems fair to the players.

This isn't about dragons, it's about 1/2 dragons. And the template doesn't change a 1d4 HD to a 1d12 HD, it changes it to a 1d6 HD.

 

[Ristamar]

Yes, I know it bumps up the HD. Sorry, I really wasn't clear... I should've used a better example.

My argument really had nothing to do with half dragons or dragons specifically, just the rules on how class hit dice are applied to existing creatures, or existing creatures with templates.

Let's ignore half-dragon for the moment and look at the lich template (d12 hit die). If you add class levels to a lich, they gain class hit dice levels, not a d12 regardless of what class they take. To do otherwise would be silly, IMO, as a template simply changes the creature's race/species. If you change class HD for templates, it would seem to make sense to follow the same rules when adding class levels to regular creatures (hence my 'adding class levels to a dragon' example), but that's not how it currently works. *shrug*

 

[Caliban]

Yes, I know it bumps up the HD. Sorry, I really wasn't clear... I should've used a better example.

My argument really had nothing to do with half dragons or dragons specifically, just the rules on how class hit dice are applied to existing creatures, or existing creatures with templates.

Let's ignore half-dragon for the moment and look at the lich template (d12 hit die). If you add class levels to a lich, they gain class hit dice levels, not a d12 regardless of what class they take. To do otherwise would be silly, IMO, as a template simply changes the creature's race/species. If you change class HD for templates, it would seem to make sense to follow the same rules when adding class levels to regular creatures (hence my 'adding class levels to a dragon' example), but that's not how it currently works. *shrug*

Well, acquiring the lich template does change a wizardd HD to D12's instead of the D4's they had before. Presumably if they continue gaining levels after becoming a lich, they will gain D12's. This is to balance out the loss of their Con score.

 

[Ristamar]

I just realized I probably shot myself in the foot with that lich example. All their HD get changed, don't they? Gah, I wish I had an example I could look at because I can't remember. Hmm... I suppose undead might be a special exception.

Still, the half-dragon thing makes sense to me. I guess I must be in a strange frame of mind at the moment. I'll have to ponder it more later.

 

[Ristamar]

Well, acquiring the lich template does change a wizardd HD to D12's instead of the D4's they had before. Presumably if they continue gaining levels after becoming a lich, they will gain D12's. This is to balance out the loss of their Con score.

Yep, ya got me there. Realized that just a bit too late.

In most cases, though, I see a template as a change to the base creature, which generally ignores class hit dice, much in the way the existing class hit die type ignore racial hit die type when adding class levels to existing creatures. Obviously there are some exceptions, though, such as the lich (or all undead, AFAIK)... I suppose I could see anyone reasonably going either way on this issue, depending on what angle you look at it from.

 

[Wolf72]

on examples from WotC ...

the Sage basically said the kobold entry for the 1/2-dragon in Fight Club was incorrect.

 

[kreynolds]

Well I'll be snookered! I just checked the WotC website and found this in the Fight Club. Check out the hit die.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/fc/fc20000101c

 

[Caliban]

Well I'll be snookered! I just checked the WotC website and found this in the Fight Club. Check out the hit die.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/fc/fc20000101c

They also have this:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/fc/fc20010427a


Either way, somone applied the template incorrectly. These two have already been pointed out by several people in a previous thread.

 

[Wolf72]

should have posted this earlier ...

well duh! ... sorry ... but yeah in the original thread we pointed those out.

there are a total of 3 half-dragon examples: Minotaur, Dragonkin, and Kobold.

the Mintotaur and Dragonkin both upgrade their "monster" HD but not their class HD.

the Kobold upgrades both it's ranger and sorceror HD (Sage says this is double-plus un-good)

http://www.enworld.org/messageboards/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6239 (original thread)

 

[kreynolds]

Well...2 examples against 1. Guess that about sums it up. No increase in class HD. I guess anything else is a house rule.