Half-golem Magic immunity

[Magic Rub]

Well, considering the Tome and Blood books have spells specificaially designed for repairing constructs, I'd hope that a golem's creator/controller can tell it to lower its spell immunity.

1. Those spells are specificaially designed for repairing constructs, not golems, however I'm sure if a golem does not have magic immunity it can be repaired buy this spell. Yes a golem is a construct, but not all constructs are golems, or have the magic immunity as listed. Golems with the afore noted immunity to spells, spell-like effects, & supernatural abilities all have a built-in mechanism for healing. For example in the case of the iron golem, for every 3 points of fire damage it would "normally" take it is instead healed (or repaired) by 1 point per. They don't need the T&B spells.

2. You have to weigh the pro's & con's of the half-golem template. What is being gained for a mere CR increase of +3.

If you treat the Magic Immunity (ex) ability as a spell resistance, as something that can be lowered you get the following.
Benefits;
- AC: +11 bonus
- Breath weapon (su) (in the case of the iron half-golem this ability can kill, quickly!)
- Damage resistance 25/+2
- **Selective - Magic immunity as an Iron golem to spells, spell-like effects, & supernatural abilities (able to be lowered as per spell resistance)
- Free healing, in addition to regular magical forms of healing, from fire
- Only become slowed from electrical attacks
- Fort+2 racial bonus
- Str: +12 bonus
- Con: +4 bonus

Negatives;
- Cha: -6
- Int: -6,
- Dex: - 2,
- Rust vulnerability

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If you treat the Magic Immunity (ex) ability as a permanent uncontrollable feature that can NOT be lowered you get the following.
Benefits;
- AC: +11 bonus
- Breath weapon (su) (in the case of the iron half-golem this ability can kill, quickly!)
- Damage resistance 25/+2
- Magic immunity as an Iron golem to spells, spell-like effects, & supernatural abilities
- Free healing from fire
- Only become slowed from electrical attacks
- Fort+2 racial bonus
- Str: +12 bonus
- Con: +4 bonus

Negatives;
- Cha: -6
- Int: -6,
- Dex: - 2,
- Rust vulnerability
- Magic immunity as an Iron golem to spells, spell-like effects, & supernatural abilities

_____________

IMO my second example seems more inline with a CR increase of +3

 

[LokiDR]

The first example is a CR +3.

The problem here is that the template is not a +3 LA. The level adjustment for this is probably a +4 or +5. Most templates have a higher LA than CR modification. Half Celestial is a +4 LA, but only a +2 CR at most.

As for lowering the magic immunity, it can be lowered. First, it is defined as a variation on SR, and SR can be lowered. Next, different creatures with spell immunity (Rakasha) can lower the immunity to accept spells. Then, there is the point that many of the common constructs (and the most expensive) are golems. Not being able to repaire them by the spells in Tome and Blood seems contrary to the intent. Finally, I seem to recal a Sage reply saying spell imunity in general could be lowered.

So, it is a really powerful abiltiy, but it costs a lot. The player who wants it should think carefully, since it isn't an easy deal. Remember, he will have a sizable ECL to buy off in any event.

 

[AuraSeer]

As for lowering the magic immunity, it can be lowered. First, it is defined as a variation on SR, and SR can be lowered.

Except that it's not defined as a version of SR. That's the way to adjudicate its effect, but it is a distinct ability of its own.

Next, different creatures with spell immunity (Rakasha) can lower the immunity to accept spells.

The Rakshasa's ability is also different; it affects only spells and spell-like abilities of level 8 or lower. A golem's immunity has no limit to its effectiveness.

IMO this is an important balance issue. SR can be defeated by a powerful caster, as can the Rakshasa's spell immunity. The golem's ability is better by an order of magnitude, because even an epic Wiz100 cannot penetrate it. Since there's no hole in the defense, it must have some kind of drawback, lest it break the game.

Then, there is the point that many of the common constructs (and the most expensive) are golems. Not being able to repaire them by the spells in Tome and Blood seems contrary to the intent.

Then make those spells be special exceptions, which can penetrate the immunity. That'd be far more sensible than making a blanket inference and changing how magic immunity works.

 

[Magic Rub]

As for lowering the magic immunity, it can be lowered. First, it is defined as a variation on SR...

Please show me where it is defined. Book, page number.

Next, different creatures with spell immunity (Rakasha) can lower the immunity to accept spells.

Please note this is not a spell immunity, this is a magic immunity. And applies to spells, spell like effects, & supernatural abilities (unlike SR which only applies to spells & spell like effects)

Then, there is the point that many of the common constructs (and the most expensive) are golems. Not being able to repaire them by the spells in Tome and Blood seems contrary to the intent.

As I stated above... "Those spells are specificaially designed for repairing constructs... ...Yes a golem is a construct, but not all constructs are golems, or have the magic immunity as listed. Golems with the afore noted immunity to spells, spell-like effects, & supernatural abilities all have a built-in mechanism for healing. For example in the case of the iron golem, for every 3 points of fire damage it would "normally" take it is instead healed (or repaired) by 1 point per. They don't need the T&B spells to be healed. "

Finally, I seem to recal a Sage reply saying spell imunity in general could be lowered.

Yes spell imunity can be lowered. Like in the case of the Nightwalker shade. However as I have stated, this is not a spell immunity, this is a magic immunity. And applies to spells, spell like effects, & supernatural abilities (unlike SR which only applies to spells & spell like effects)

 

[Magic Rub]

If you could lower it at will why wouldn't every high level fighter (especially the evil ones) run out & become half-golems. Replace an arm (just 1) & like that you are a nearly unstoppable magic-proof killing machine, lower your "SR" when it suits your needs (Teleports, healing, ect. ect. ect.)

That just doesn't make a lot of sense from a game mechanics prospective.

 

[LokiDR]

First, I am fairly certain that there is no offical position on this matter, so you can rule either way without resorting to "house rules". I see the matter as pretty clear, but I am not the Sage, FAQ, or one of the designers.

Except that it's not defined as a version of SR. That's the way to adjudicate its effect, but it is a distinct ability of its own.

Spell immunity is defined as unbeatable SR in specific cases. This means that it is used like SR without a roll. It acts like SR with specific noted differences. One of those differences is NOT whether it can be lowered. Like SR, spell immunity can be lowered. Different abilities, but the same basic rule basis. Spell immunity does not prevent Force Cage or Maze any more than SR does. Different but related, perhaps that is better than saying versions.

The Rakshasa's ability is also different; it affects only spells and spell-like abilities of level 8 or lower. A golem's immunity has no limit to its effectiveness.

IMO this is an important balance issue. SR can be defeated by a powerful caster, as can the Rakshasa's spell immunity. The golem's ability is better by an order of magnitude, because even an epic Wiz100 cannot penetrate it. Since there's no hole in the defense, it must have some kind of drawback, lest it break the game.

Spell Immunity is scale of magnitude better than SR. This doesn't stop spell immunity from being lowered. There are also other options at the wizard's disposal than direct magic, or at least don't allow for SR.

Then make those spells be special exceptions, which can penetrate the immunity. That'd be far more sensible than making a blanket inference and changing how magic immunity works.

SR->Spell Immunity->Magic Immunity

The spells do not make specific exceptions to magic immunity. Spell immunity being lowered makes a precident for magic immunity being lowered.

 

[LokiDR]

Please show me where it is defined. Book, page number.

First, I am fairly certain that there is no offical position on this matter, so you can rule either way without resorting to "house rules". I see the matter as pretty clear, but I am not the Sage, FAQ, or one of the designers.

I never intended to imply this was an offical stance. Perhaps I should put that in my sig.

Please note this is not a spell immunity, this is a magic immunity. And applies to spells, spell like effects, & supernatural abilities (unlike SR which only applies to spells & spell like effects)

It is an extension of SR, to also include supernatural affects, just as spell immunity is an extension of SR setting the number to infinity.

You do realize that your interpretation prevents the fighter from using a huge number of useful magical items. The only way to prevent him from dying in a force cage is to disintegrate it, assuming he isn't a complete construct.

I am begining to think that magic immunity is poorly writen. If, as you say, no helpful magic may be used on them, what about the supernatural damage reduction they have? If you let them keep this, what about the magic WEAPONS that getting through that DR? SR doesn't prevent supernatual abilities, and it implies the magic of a weapon is supernatural. Are half-golem/golems immune to the magic of weapons?

As I stated above... "Those spells are specificaially designed for repairing constructs... ...Yes a golem is a construct, but not all constructs are golems, or have the magic immunity as listed. Golems with the afore noted immunity to spells, spell-like effects, & supernatural abilities all have a built-in mechanism for healing. For example in the case of the iron golem, for every 3 points of fire damage it would "normally" take it is instead healed (or repaired) by 1 point per. They don't need the T&B spells to be healed. "

See above.

Let's face it, 1/3 healing from fire is not sufficent for a high level character.

I had wanted to make spell immunity a weakness to those creatures that had it, but the sage and Savage Species said otherwise. This is a very similar case.

Yes spell imunity can be lowered. Like in the case of the Nightwalker shade. However as I have stated, this is not a spell immunity, this is a magic immunity. And applies to spells, spell like effects, & supernatural abilities (unlike SR which only applies to spells & spell like effects)

It is an extension of Spell Immunity, just as Spell Immunity is an extension of SR. That seems pretty clear to me.

 

[LokiDR]

If you could lower it at will why wouldn't every high level fighter (especially the evil ones) run out & become half-golems. Replace an arm (just 1) & like that you are a nearly unstoppable magic-proof killing machine, lower your "SR" when it suits your needs (Teleports, healing, ect. ect. ect.)

That just doesn't make a lot of sense from a game mechanics prospective.

Besides the role-playing concerns of being a freak, there is a chance that you loose your mind and hate all living things. That should be discouraging to at least a few.

But there are more rule-based solutions as well. If this template is a +5 LA, then a 15th level fighter/half golem would be a member of 20th level party. Those 5 levels of feats/PrC/hit dice can make for all the difference. Sure the spellcaster can't do much to you, but the Tarasqe will make mince meat out of you. You are trading a template for some number of levels.

Also, by your interpretation, no fighter would EVER want this template. Many of their magical items would cease functioning. No belt of giant's strength, gloves of dex, amulet of health, helm of teleportation, cape of the mounteback, winged boots, or many other neccessary items. High level parties run into threats that can only be defeated by use of teleport, or at least run from via teleport. Fighters need that magic, else they loose any chance to keep up with spellcasters.

Balance comes from LA. If you believe it is still too good at +5 LA, increase it more. That way, they are missing enough of being a fighter to balance. Immune to casters, beaten down by other fighters.

 

[AuraSeer]

It is an extension of SR, to also include supernatural affects, just as spell immunity is an extension of SR setting the number to infinity.

You're making an unfounded assumption. Magic Immunity is not described as an extension of SR anywhere in the rules, nor in the FAQ, nor in any Sage reply I've seen. Its implementation is approximately equivalent to that of SR, but it is a distinct ability. (I'm beginning to feel like a broken record here.)

An analogy: incorporeal creatures and ethereal creatures can both walk through walls, but that doesn't mean Etherealness is an "extension" of Incorporeality.

You do realize that your interpretation prevents the fighter from using a huge number of useful magical items.

Yes, exactly. That is part of the drawback. No magic means no magic, end of story.

The only way to prevent him from dying in a force cage is to disintegrate it, assuming he isn't a complete construct.

That or wait for the duration to run out, yes. Your point is...?

If, as you say, no helpful magic may be used on them, what about the supernatural damage reduction they have? If you let them keep this, what about the magic WEAPONS that getting through that DR? SR doesn't prevent supernatual abilities, and it implies the magic of a weapon is supernatural. Are half-golem/golems immune to the magic of weapons?

I don't have any idea what you're trying to say here.

Are you implying that I think golems are immune to magic weapons? That's a strawman argument-- pretend your opponent said something obviously wrong, refute it, and imply that everything he really said was also wrong. I hope that's not your intent, because it's a stupid and dishonest debating tactic.

You don't seem to be saying that you think half-golems should be immune to magic weapons, so I'm just not certain what this has to do with the issue at hand. Perhaps you could restate this in a different way?

 

[LokiDR]

You're making an unfounded assumption. Magic Immunity is not described as an extension of SR anywhere in the rules, nor in the FAQ, nor in any Sage reply I've seen. Its implementation is approximately equivalent to that of SR, but it is a distinct ability. (I'm beginning to feel like a broken record here.)

An analogy: incorporeal creatures and ethereal creatures can both walk through walls, but that doesn't mean Etherealness is an "extension" of Incorporeality.

Ethrealness and Incorporeality are described abilites of monsters in the SRD and the DMG. They don't use the same underlying mechanics, they each define different ones. Magic Immunity is not listed. Spell resistance is defined, Spell Immunity is not. Spell Immunity is like Spell Resistance, right?

Could I cast Force Cage around a Magic Immune creature? It is not stated that this will have any effect, but, since Force Cage doesn't allow SR, the spell should work as intended. It is SR that tells me this, not Magic Immunity.

I would make this same arguement if Ethreal and Incorpreal ever referenced Ethreal for rules but I don't think they do. The don't have any common implementation. Spell Immunity inherits SR. Ethreal and Incorpreal are not related this way.

I understand you say they they aren't the same. But they use SOME of the same rules. In cases where the child's action is undefined, the parent's action is use.

I do hope you are an OO Prismatic Programer, or this won't make any sense.

Yes, exactly. That is part of the drawback. No magic means no magic, end of story.

High level chacters need magic. Without it, they are FAR less effective. You have broken the balance in the other direction.

That or wait for the duration to run out, yes. Your point is...?

Force Cage, in solid form, doesn't allow air flow. I assume half golems still need to breath, if they are not type construct.

I don't have any idea what you're trying to say here.

Are you implying that I think golems are immune to magic weapons? That's a strawman argument-- pretend your opponent said something obviously wrong, refute it, and imply that everything he really said was also wrong. I hope that's not your intent, because it's a stupid and dishonest debating tactic.

You don't seem to be saying that you think half-golems should be immune to magic weapons, so I'm just not certain what this has to do with the issue at hand. Perhaps you could restate this in a different way?

I am implying magic immunity is poorly written. DR is a supernatural ability. Supernatural abilites do not function on the magic immune creature. ?? So the half-golem doesn't have DR, it being a supernatural ability. Taken literally, that is what it says.

Magic weapons are magic, right? Well, the magic immune creature is immune to them (besides the shape pokey part). I don't think that is the way it should be, but that is the way it reads.

This makes little sense, so I conclude that Magic Immunity was poorly written. That is exactly how I started that paragraph. I think the ability should be re-written to make sense. Then, perhaps we wouldn't need to argue over what the abilty really is.