Half-orc revisions

[Drakron]

If so, maybe they aren't paying too much attention to race/class abilities? I find in 3e, HUMANS are the min/max race of choice. The bonus feat is far more a min/maxer's tool of choice than a +2 dex and racial abilities that suck if you are a fighter type.

Humans are good but elves racial weapon profiences are worth 2 feats for non fighter classes.

Also the con issue is fine and good but there is always weapon fitness meaning that a elf fighter dont need really to raise his str score.

Also elves have access to elf only stuff (and so half-elves), like the bladesinger PtC.

Also elves have immunity to sleep and charm, sleep is a killer at lower levels.

Again, another trend I have just not seen. Half0dragons (more properly, "dragonbloods") are a part of my campaign setting and have been open as a character option from day 1 of my 3e campaign.

I have seen ONE half dragon in my campaign EVER.

Well I can say you have a good group but by the sheer number about half-dragon characters I seen posted on the WotC forums I can say they are common choise, since I play in Ravenloft and d20 Modern they are not even a choise.

 

[Psion]

Humans are good but elves racial weapon profiences are worth 2 feats for non fighter classes.

Sure, they are a good choice for non-fighters, but entirely redundant for fighter types.

But it's not a munchkin choice. Having bow proficiency as a wizard is not going to give you the BAB or strength to use it effectively. It just gives you a little more latitude with your weapon choices once you run out of spells.

Also the con issue is fine and good

I didn't mention that, but now that you do, it is a severe detriment to fighter types.

but there is always weapon fitness meaning that a elf fighter dont need really to raise his str score.

Once again, this supposed benefit is only a benefit if you analyze it in a vacuum. Relying on weapon finesse will put you YET ANOTHER feat behind a human fighter.

Also elves have access to elf only stuff (and so half-elves), like the bladesinger PtC.

The free feat is far more telling in PrC access than racial blood ever will be.

In short, there is nothing that elves have that isn't more than counterbalanced by humans. Simply put, elves are not a greatly appealing choice from a powergaming standpoint in 3e (much less half elves.)

 

[Psion]

Well I can say you have a good group but by the sheer number about half-dragon characters I seen posted on the WotC forums

The collective postings of all half-dragon players on the largest RPG forum on the web is supposed to reflect a high ratio overall? I think not.

 

[Psion]

True, true... Except if you picture in subraces.

Grey elves: -2 Str +2 Dex -2 Con +2 Int, standard elven traits: Every min-maxing wizard will be one, unless playing in the Realms.

Every min-maxing barbarian will want to be a half-orc. Point? I don't see elves as exceptional in this regard. This "elves are munchkin" sentiment strikes me as a holdover from 2e, as they are not especially strong in 3e.

 

[Tiefling]

Indeed. I've not seen a half elf PC in 3e that was not a translation of a 2e character.

I play half-elves all the time. I guess I'm some sort of mutant. Or I don't care about the bonuses.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

???

I think you undermine your own point.

The "I hit him hard" crowd is a legitimate part of the D&D community. If the half-orc was underbalanced, they would not select this race nearly as often as they do. But, as you point out so clearly, the -2 INT and -2 CHR are not nearly as important to them as the +2 STR. So clearly, the +2 STR at least balances out the penalties. Then throw in darkvision on that. I don't think the case could be made that they are overpowered. But they are a long way from shafted.

Sure they have a legitimate part in the D&D crowd. And to them the half orc is fine, its penalties mean nothing to them because, they don't interact and they don't use many skills so an int hit and chr hit are meaningless to them. To everyone else the hit to int and chr very large hits and at best balance it with str. Then they only get darkvision and not darkvksion + a host of other abilities like every other race gets.(or low light and a host, or just a big ass host of abilities for the halfling)

a race that only works for a small segment of the D&D population because the penalties are meaningless to them isn't a balanced race.

 

[Tiefling]

a race that only works for a small segment of the D&D population because the penalties are meaningless to them isn't a balanced race.

Why's that?

 

[BryonD]

Sure they have a legitimate part in the D&D crowd. And to them the half orc is fine, its penalties mean nothing to them because, they don't interact and they don't use many skills so an int hit and chr hit are meaningless to them. To everyone else the hit to int and chr very large hits and at best balance it with str. Then they only get darkvision and not darkvksion + a host of other abilities like every other race gets.(or low light and a host, or just a big ass host of abilities for the halfling)

I never said they get a whole host of other abilities. I stated that the STR bonus AT LEAST cancels out the INT and CHR alone. The drakvision is just gravy.

Obviously, your opinion of what they should have differs from mine. Fine.

But how can you say that a race that, as you admit, is "fine" to many should be shifted into unfair advantage?

a race that only works for a small segment of the D&D population because the penalties are meaningless to them isn't a balanced race.

While you and me may have a difference of opinion, your characterization of the half-orc segment as "small" is highly questionable. If you consider that there are 7 core races and a bias towards humans as PC race, the segment of half orc players is very reasonable.

The race, quite simply, is balanced. Is it perhaps a little uninteresting from a strictly mechanical view. I think so. But again, this ignores my point about the non mechanical aspects of the race.

Just look, in this very thread. It has been pointed out as the race of choice for a min/max barbarian. I agree with that sentiment and don't see the slightest problem with it.
Can you decisively dispute that claim?

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Every min-maxing barbarian will want to be a half-orc. Point? I don't see elves as exceptional in this regard. This "elves are munchkin" sentiment strikes me as a holdover from 2e, as they are not especially strong in 3e.

When you end up with 5 subraces so every min/max concept is more than handled then elves and other sub race monkey races do stand out.

And also while Humans are great, Elves are easily just as good even without the subrace hoo-haw.

+2 dex-2 con a wash IMO, for front line types a hit, for rear guards a +. Low light, nice but not darkvision.

Martial weapon proficiencies, great for non fighter classes, wasted for fighters.(mage beneifts are short lived unless you really focus on it with buffs and the like)

+2 to spot/listen/search is a big benie especialy at low levels when you are not facing high level rogues. Instant detect secret doors if within 5', not massively powerful but a huge out of game benefit, and a decent in game benefit.

+2 save vs enchanments is close to having iron will a near must have feat for the weak will save classes. Immune to sleep is nice, can be a life saver but then again you might not ever bump into it in the few sessions it takes to level past it.

4 hours meditation if a mage not that big of a deal, for every other class its a huge benefit for the small party.

Munchkin no, but if these abilities fit anywhere near along the line you were shooting for a much better choice than human. Which is how it should be, the human should be able to fit any niche fairly well,but if a races specific abilities fit what your shooting for that race should be the better choice.

Elves IMO make fantastic rogues, bards and clerics. They make above average but within the reach of in skill mages, sorcerers, and druids. They make above average but agin in the reach of in skill of bow specialized fighters. they make below average front line types. People can design things aorund this to amke a crappy elf cleric or a great elf frontline fighter with all the feats and attribute placements options.

Add in sub races and they aren't weak in any area and in fact make fantastic everything.

 

[reapersaurus]

The race, quite simply, is balanced

Just look, in this very thread. It has been pointed out as the race of choice for a min/max barbarian. I agree with that sentiment and don't see the slightest problem with it.
Can you decisively dispute that claim?

BryonD: this one thread is not evidence that the 3E half-orc isn't shafted.

I direct your attention to the myriad of half-orc is shafted threads thru the years, wherein the prevailing opinion (my guesstimate: 75% of the participants) agree that the half-orc IS underpowered.

Hate to break it to you, but that's the way it has gone down.
You can argue it all you want, but the majority of people on internet discussion boards (I've personally read every half-orc thread for over 2 years) believe that it is a problem.

For Wizards to shirk their responsibility in tweaking the half-orc in 3.5E is amazingly negligent, and their statement that it's a "very powerful race" is a bald-faced lie, from my experiences with 3E.

The designers of the game are REQUIRED to understand about a thing called BALANCE.
They can't just simplistically call a +2 STR race "very powerful", unless their target audience truly IS the "munchkin", "no-role-playing" crowd.

That press statement actually makes me wonder as to who this 3.5Edition is geared towards now.