half orcs and orc double axe

[Rashak Mani]

Dwarven Thrower is a simple +2 or +3 Warhammer. But in the hands of a Dwarf its a killing machine that you can throw at 30ft

Im not sure but i believe Oathbow is Elf only also.

Why isnt there a Orc weapon ? It would be great, since I really like Half-Orcs.

 

[silvertable81]

Actually, even a full orc needs the exotic weapon proficiency to use the orc-double-axe.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Elves have the proficiency with swords and bows already.

You seem to forget that the elves proficiencies are part of their racial bonuses, and the balancing of the races takes them into account. The races don't all have the same abilities.

See that halflings get a +1 racial attack bonus with a thrown weapon. That's because halflings are exceptionally good with them. Following your logic, elves should get +1 rab with bows and the longsword / rapier, orcs with the orc double axe, dwarves with the dwarven war axe and so on.

 

[Mistwell]

You seem to forget that the elves proficiencies are part of their racial bonuses, and the balancing of the races takes them into account. The races don't all have the same abilities.

See that halflings get a +1 racial attack bonus with a thrown weapon. That's because halflings are exceptionally good with them. Following your logic, elves should get +1 rab with bows and the longsword / rapier, orcs with the orc double axe, dwarves with the dwarven war axe and so on.

Orc blood IS a racial bonus, as is elf blood for Half-Elves, and I assume these racial bonuses were taken in to account when balancing the races. We are just arguing what that means.

Applying the halfling +1 attack bonus directly to this debate is not my logic, it is yours. I don't feel the halfling attack bonus to thrown weapons is directly analogous to this situation. However, since you brought it up, it again emphasizes that the halflings are good at throwing a particular kind of STONE, hence they have a bonus at all thrown weapons. The stone in reference is the halfling skip-rock. It makes sense that, if they grew up throwing the skip-rocks around, and they have an attack bonus when throwing because of their familiarity with throwing that stone, that they should also be proficienct with the skip-rocks.

You tell me. Why would halflings be NOT proficienct with throwing those stones, if they get a +1 bonus to throwing anything because of their extensive experience with them?

Races grow up surrounded by certain games, events, and training. I just think that races are naturally proficient with one or two weapons that they were surrounded by, and that are special to their race. It is "in their blood" to have proficiency with weapons unique to their race.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

The reason halflings wouldn't be proficient with skiprocks is that they're used to throwing normal rocks--you know the kind that don't bounce off one opponent and into another.

Now as far as racial proficiencies go, it probably wouldn't screw up balance very much to give out a few simple and martial weapon proficiencies (or maybe even ineffective exotic weapons like the great crossbow from S&F). However, giving away effective exotic weapon proficiencies (bastard sword, dwarven waraxe, orc double axe, etc) would unbalance the races. At the moment, there is no race which makes a better fighter because of the racial proficiencies they are given. Elvish fighters are proficient with swords and bows anyway and consequently gain no bonus from the proficiencies. Giving dwarves dwarven waraxe proficiency, for example would give them the same number of effective feats as a human fighter (able to get exotic weapon prof, power attack, and cleave at lvl 1) in addition to all the bonusses they get at the moment. It probably wouldn't be too unbalancing but it wouldn't be a good. Just because it won't instantly doom your game doesn't make it a good thing.

Anyway, my take on all those "racially named" weapons was that they were weapons developed by that race but not exclusively used by that race. A dwarven waraxe is a big axe that some dwarves are famous for using, not a weapon that all dwarves use. Similarly, a halfling skiprock is an odd weapon developed by halflings not a weapon that all halflings know how to use. Same for the elven thinblade.

 

[Caliban]

Orc blood IS a racial bonus, as is elf blood for Half-Elves, and I assume these racial bonuses were taken in to account when balancing the races. We are just arguing what that means.

Applying the halfling +1 attack bonus directly to this debate is not my logic, it is yours. I don't feel the halfling attack bonus to thrown weapons is directly analogous to this situation. However, since you brought it up, it again emphasizes that the halflings are good at throwing a particular kind of STONE, hence they have a bonus at all thrown weapons. The stone in reference is the halfling skip-rock. It makes sense that, if they grew up throwing the skip-rocks around, and they have an attack bonus when throwing because of their familiarity with throwing that stone, that they should also be proficienct with the skip-rocks.

You tell me. Why would halflings be NOT proficienct with throwing those stones, if they get a +1 bonus to throwing anything because of their extensive experience with them?

Show me a halfling skiprock anywhere in the core rules. They didn't show up until Sword and Fist, and were not part of the halfling culture as defined in the PHB.

Halflings are good at throwing things in general, not one item in particular. Nothing in the PHB indicates that have any special proficiency with skiprocks. (Especially since they are a weapon that didn't even exist at the time!)

Races grow up surrounded by certain games, events, and training. I just think that races are naturally proficient with one or two weapons that they were surrounded by, and that are special to their race. It is "in their blood" to have proficiency with weapons unique to their race.

So longswords and bows are unique to elves, and that's why they are automatically proficient with them?

Weapon proficiency is a result of training, not a genetic endowment. Elves just live a long time and as part of their upbringing received training with a few common weapons.

Why would a half-orc that is raised with humans be automatically trained in the use of an exotic weapon?
Why would a half-orc that is raised with orcs be automatically trained in the use of an exotic weapon when full blooded orcs aren't proficient with it? (Check the MM section on Orcs.)

Why do the orcs in the MM use Greataxes and not double axes, if they are automatically proficient with double-axes?

As a matter of fact, I don't see any mention of exotic weapon proficiencies in the MM descriptions of any of the PHB races either. If these are proficiencies that every member of that race automatically has, don't you think it would be mentioned in their MM descriptions?

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Note that half-elves have elf blood and they don't gain proficiency in the "elf" weapons.

 

[dcollins]

D&D Rules forum protocol #7:

Q> Does my character get this power?
A> No, not under the normal rules.
Q> That's dumb, my character should get this power.
A> See you in the House Rules forum, then.

 

[Mistwell]

Show me a halfling skiprock anywhere in the core rules. They didn't show up until Sword and Fist, and were not part of the halfling culture as defined in the PHB.

Halflings are good at throwing things in general, not one item in particular. Nothing in the PHB indicates that have any special proficiency with skiprocks. (Especially since they are a weapon that didn't even exist at the time!)

It says throwing stones. The "halfing stones" were not detailed until S&F, the first splat book, but I believe the intent was to provide detail on the "halfling stones". If it isn't the skiprocks, then the halflings should be proficient with throwing stones of some kind, no matter their class. And thrown stones DO some damage. If they should not have this proficiency, tell me why they shouldn't?

So longswords and bows are unique to elves, and that's why they are automatically proficient with them?

Unique or special was what I was talking about. For elves, it is special. And it's a huge advantage for the non-combat classes to have that proficiency. Far more of an advantage, I think, that allowing the couple of special race-specific items we are talking about.

Weapon proficiency is a result of training, not a genetic endowment. Elves just live a long time and as part of their upbringing received training with a few common weapons.

Why would a half-orc that is raised with humans be automatically trained in the use of an exotic weapon?

The orc-blood and elf-blood entries say "special orc weapons" and "elven weapons" (respectively). They ALSO say "magic items with racially specific orc powers" and "magic items with racially specific elven powers" (respectively). That means there are mundane, non-magical special orc weapons and elven weapons that half-orcs and half-elves can use, even if they did not grow up in an orc or elf community. Why would that be? How about because it is in their blood, as the orc-blood and elf-blood entries imply. Can you give me a better reason why the "blood" entry would specify use of special orc/elf weapons for these halfbreeds?

Why would a half-orc that is raised with orcs be automatically trained in the use of an exotic weapon when full blooded orcs aren't proficient with it? (Check the MM section on Orcs.)

Why do the orcs in the MM use Greataxes and not double axes, if they are automatically proficient with double-axes?

As a matter of fact, I don't see any mention of exotic weapon proficiencies in the MM descriptions of any of the PHB races either. If these are proficiencies that every member of that race automatically has, don't you think it would be mentioned in their MM descriptions?

Because, as someone already said, they are virtually useless weapons without the ambidexterity and two-weapon fighting feats.

 

[Mistwell]

D&D Rules forum protocol #7:

Q> Does my character get this power?
A> No, not under the normal rules.
Q> That's dumb, my character should get this power.
A> See you in the House Rules forum, then.

We are discussing what the "Blood" entries mean for halfbreed races, and the names of certain exotic weapons that seem tied to specific races. It isn't a houserule, it's an interpretation of existing rules.

If at some point we have a definitive "No, there is no automatic proficiency for races when using special race-specific weapons in existing rules" then we can take the issue to the house-rules forum.