D&D 5E Halfling rogue sniping from the the second rank

[Sir Brennen]

D'oh, this thread got away on me pretty fast.

I thought of a way an enemy could potentially defeat the pop-out-fire-hide tactic.

As long as the enemy acts after the halfling, just move to a position where the ally no longer gives the halfling cover.

Since hide is predicated on being partially obscured by something, if the enemy moves to a position where the halfling no longer gains the cover benefit from the ally, I would argue the halfling is no longer obscured/concealed either and therefore no longer meet the requirements for hide.

Does that sound fair? I don't want to nerf a legit ability but I also want my intelligent monsters to act intelligently too by trying to get a bead on this super-slippery-halfling.

Yeah, that's been mentioned a few times, and seems perfectly reasonable to me.

As a counter-tactic to your tactic, the players can have halfling and meat-shield stand in a doorway or narrow space so the target can't get a better view of his big-footed tormentor

If you're just coming back to the thread, did you see the twitter response from Mike Mearls a few posts back? He says it's reasonable to give the Halfling disadvantage to hiding repeatedly against the same target. That might convince the player to use his Cunning Action on Dash or Disengage to position themselves for some other tactic.

If they successfully hide even with Disadvantage, I say they earned their bonus, especially for a character designed with Stealth as their shtick.

 

[Snapdragyn]

Did no one use sniping in previous editions? Because that's all this is, with the slight change of sniping from behind an ally. I don't get all the kerfuffle.

Counter to sniping from cover is easy - 'I ready an action to shoot the little guy in the face when he pops out to snipe at me'. Done.

 

[TDarien]

Did no one use sniping in previous editions? Because that's all this is, with the slight change of sniping from behind an ally. I don't get all the kerfuffle.

Counter to sniping from cover is easy - 'I ready an action to shoot the little guy in the face when he pops out to snipe at me'. Done.

The only issue with this (and it's minor), is that in this case the readied action won't go off until AFTER the halfling's attack, as the halfling doesn't need to "pop out" of cover from his ally, as he can see his target still because the ally provides only half cover, which you can see around. Attacking while hidden doesn't reveal you until your attack hits or misses.

So it would work like this.
Monster readies an action to attack the halfling if he sees him
Halfling attacks from hiding (with advantage) making him visible again
Monster's readied action goes off and gets to attack the halfling (presumably with disavandage for being in melee) with half cover.

 

[Sir Brennen]

Did no one use sniping in previous editions? Because that's all this is, with the slight change of sniping from behind an ally. I don't get all the kerfuffle.

Counter to sniping from cover is easy - 'I ready an action to shoot the little guy in the face when he pops out to snipe at me'. Done.

Bit of an oversimplification. Your solution is about the tactic to deal with a sniper, but doesn't really answer the rules/mechanics questions about whether the sniper gets advantage for repeatedly hiding.

Part of the debate over that is whether you can actually see them when they "pop-up", or how the Hide mechanic works with this edition's RAW. Some interpret the rules as "they're still hiding until they attack" or "pop-up" doesn't necessarily mean being visible. I personally agree with your take on it... if you have a reasonable idea where the sniper is (i.e., after the first attack or two), then you'll see them when they go for another.

But with regard to the Halfling ability that prompted the discussion in the first place, it's a little different. If the target is engaged with the fighter the halfling is hiding behind, you probably want to deal with the fighter, but at the same time, not keep taking additional Sneak Attack damage from the halfing. So the question is, is it reasonable for the halfing to hide repeatedly almost directly in front of his target? Official answer, yes, but use common sense (like give Disadvantage to the Hide check).

 

[Snapdragyn]

The only issue with this (and it's minor), is that in this case the readied action won't go off until AFTER the halfling's attack, as the halfling doesn't need to "pop out" of cover from his ally, as he can see his target still because the ally provides only half cover, which you can see around. Attacking while hidden doesn't reveal you until your attack hits or misses.

So it would work like this.
Monster readies an action to attack the halfling if he sees him
Halfling attacks from hiding (with advantage) making him visible again
Monster's readied action goes off and gets to attack the halfling (presumably with disavandage for being in melee) with half cover.

All readied actions occur after their trigger now. BR p.72.

I was merely pointing out that it's not quite the 'keystone cops' situation someone mentioned upthread, where the NPC or PC getting nailed by the halfling is unable to respond unless it's possible to reposition such as to negate the cover. By making use of readied actions, they can get in an attack after the halfling reveals itself (as you say, when the attack hits or misses) but before it can hide again. They'll still face the +2 for cover on the halfling's AC, but they won't be at disadvantage against a hidden opponent whose general location is known.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

Wow, the thread continues...

I'm very comfortable with Mike Mearls solution, and I don't see any reason to complicate it any more than that. And I'm not talking about just the halfling ability. A few thoughts -

My concern wasn't that the halfling was hidden, it was that it was able to hide again in the same context over and over. And that concern wasn't just for that ability. My concern was this:

Can a character attempt to Hide when his position is known?

Mike's solution addresses that very appropriately. Yes, they can attempt to Hide, but it may be at a disadvantage.

I'm good with this in the lone tree scenario as well. As several have pointed out, even if you don't move you can attempt to Hide. OK, so you've fooled them into thinking you've disappeared. But your attempt may be at a disadvantage.

I'm sure there will be a debate as to whether this applies to other situations since the question was specifically about the halfling ability. But it makes sense to me. Once an opponent knows you are there, they will be paying closer attention to your attempts to Hide. It doesn't mean you can't hide, just that it's harder.

Naturally Stealthy gives a halfling a bonus location to hide, not a bonus to its hide ability. Otherwise it would have granted them Advantage when making a Hide attempt, behind an ally or anywhere else.

So I think the situation is the same, the opponent knows your position, and knows what you're trying to do.

So here's the sequence I see regarding the halfling ability:
The first time the halfling uses the ability, he moves behind his fighter ally and makes a Stealth check against the opponent's Perception check and succeeds. He's now hidden.

If they opponent has initiative, they can try to attack where they think the halfling is, but do so at a disadvantage at least.

Then the halfling attacks. Yes, they will have to reveal themselves. I see this as a situation where the reaction of the opponent, even if they see them, is slower than the hidden halfling's ability to attack. In addition, the opponent may not be looking at the spot that the halfling comes out of hiding to attack. In any event, once the halfling attacks, he's no longer hidden.

Now the opponent can attack the halfling, whether his attack was readied or not. Because the halfling is no longer hidden. He's also behind an ally, so now I agree he would have half cover.

For the next round, the halfling uses his cunning action to attempt to hide again. So he moves behind the fighter again. This time the DM could rule the opponent is expecting the halfling to be there. So the halfling makes his Stealth check at a disadvantage. If he succeeds, great, the same thing applies. If not, he's not hidden, merely has half cover.

So:
1. Hide/Perception check
2. Hidden, attacks with advantage, attacks against are at a disadvantage (if not ruled behind total cover)
3. The halfling attacks. Once the attack hits or misses he's no longer hidden.
4. Attacks against the halfling are behind half cover

The only potential on subsequent rounds is that the Hide/Perception check is at a disadvantage.

Combatants can be moving all the time. I'm not sure just 'moving to where you can see the halfling' doesn't mean you'll automatically be able to see them, because I think they'll be in motion as well. I suppose flanking them could reveal them. I'll have to think about whether that's in the spirit of the ability. In terms of combat, the halfling has advantage for less than 6 seconds assuming he attacks that round. I guess if the halfling lost initiative it makes sense. But is the halfling revealed to both? Just one?

Note that the halfling can successfully Hide from some but not all opponents. If he fails against some, they could reveal his position to the others. But I think that for that round, I'm OK with him still being hidden for some opponents. I would be OK with the idea that once he's flanked he can't attempt it again, at least against the opponents flanking him.

I think this addresses all of the issues and works for the lone tree, continually sniping from a window, attacking a creature with a heightened smell, etc.

So here's the ruling:
If the opponent knows your position, you can still attempt to Hide, but it may be at a disadvantage to the Hide check.

Randy

 

[ExploderWizard]

All readied actions occur after their trigger now. BR p.72.

I was merely pointing out that it's not quite the 'keystone cops' situation someone mentioned upthread, where the NPC or PC getting nailed by the halfling is unable to respond unless it's possible to reposition such as to negate the cover. By making use of readied actions, they can get in an attack after the halfling reveals itself (as you say, when the attack hits or misses) but before it can hide again. They'll still face the +2 for cover on the halfling's AC, but they won't be at disadvantage against a hidden opponent whose general location is known.

A readied action will allow them to attack the sniper but it won't stop round after round of taking " where the #%&** did that come from!" damage from the same known source again and again.

The issue with SA damage has been around going on 15 years. It isn't new to 5E.

For D&D to feel right to me, both the DPS rogue and pew-pew wizard need to take a long walk off a short pier. Not that either archetype is unbalanced or anything like that. Its a question of feel.

 

[Plaguescarred]

Can a character attempt to Hide when his position is known?

Mike's solution addresses that very appropriately. Yes, they can attempt to Hide, but it may be at a disadvantage.

But your position is always known when you attempt to hide. If you're position was not known, you'd have no need to hide–you'd have advantage as per Unseen Attackers & Targets (Basic rules pg. 73)...

(One of the important reason to keep moving after you hid is because enemies know your last known location before you did)

 

[Sir Brennen]

But your position is always known when you attempt to hide. If you're position was not known, you'd have no need to hide–you'd have advantage as per Unseen Attackers & Targets (Basic rules pg. 73)..

If an elf tries to hide behind a lone tree in a field and there's no one around, is his position known?

I'm not sure about the second part of your statement. In many circumstances, you hide to prevent your position from becoming known, even if it's currently not known. "I hear someone coming! Quick, hide!"

 

[Lalato]

If I duck behind a hedgerow or low wall, and you know that I'm there because you saw me duck, am I hidden? If I duck behind a lone tree, and you know that I'm there because you saw me duck, am I hidden?

Do you know for sure that I didn't climb up the tree or crawl to one side of the hedgerow? Do you know for sure that I didn't stealthily walk away? How many times can I successfully pull off the trick of making you think I'm somewhere else before you finally catch on that I'm staying in the same spot?

Hmmm...