D&D 5E Halfling rogue sniping from the the second rank

[Ilbranteloth]

If I duck behind a hedgerow or low wall, and you know that I'm there because you saw me duck, am I hidden? If I duck behind a lone tree, and you know that I'm there because you saw me duck, am I hidden?

Do you know for sure that I didn't climb up the tree or crawl to one side of the hedgerow? Do you know for sure that I didn't stealthily walk away? How many times can I successfully pull off the trick of making you think I'm somewhere else before you finally catch on that I'm staying in the same spot?

Hmmm...

If you succeed in your Hide check countered by the opponent's Perception, yes. If not, no. The question is how easy it is for you to hide, and that's very circumstantial.

That's why I said that it MAY be at a disadvantage.

There's been a lot of discussion about whether you're actually there, whether I actually know, etc. That's part of the purpose of the Hide check. You've run behind something that obscures you, then make a Hide check to see if I know where you are or not. Or whether I think you're someplace else.

If you succeed, then when you pop out from behind the tree to attack me, I'm not expecting it and you have advantage.

If you fail, then I'm expecting you to be there, and to attack me from there. I'm paying closer attention so when you pop out I see you, so you are no longer hidden, and don't have advantage attacking me.

While the rules state that Hidden = not seen and not heard, they also allow a Perception check to foil your attempt to Hide, even if you are not seen and not heard. Some creatures have abilities that give them advantage on Perception checks because of other senses, like smell. You may fail your Hide check because of that as well.

I'm just saying that in certain circumstances, it's harder to fool the opponent, and thus you have disadvantage on your check. If you've ducked behind the same wall 3 times, and come out and attacked from the same place, then I'd rule you have disadvantage the next time you try it. But if you try to Hide and move to a new location you wouldn't have disadvantage because it's not what the target is expecting.

If you duck behind a low wall, and make sure that your sword sticks up a little above the wall, and you prop it up and leave it there and sneak further along the wall, I would say you have advantage on your Hide check because you've given me a creative way to try to fool the opponent, regardless of the fact that he just watched you go behind the wall.

Mike Mearl's response was to the question of whether the halfling could use the same hiding trick over and over. He said yes, but that it would probably be at disadvantage.

The answer uses a core mechanic, and was actually already in the rules: The DM can also decide that circumstances influence a roll in one direction or the other and grand advantage or impose disadvantage as a result. (pg 57).

Randy

 

[Lalato]

Well done, and I agree. Generally speaking, the ability will work as often as I roll better than my opponent. And I agree that if I keep doing the same trick over and over, it should result in some penalty/difficulty.

Could be interesting if...

1st attempt at Hide behind ally... Roll normal
2nd consecutive attempt at Hide behind ally... Halfling has Disadvantage
3rd and future attempts at Hide behind ally... Halfling has Disadvantage. Opposed Perception Check has Advantage.

If you happen to have a bunch of lucky rolls... so be it. Either the opponent is a dunderhead or you're just that good. Seems legit.

 

[Plaguescarred]

If an elf tries to hide behind a lone tree in a field and there's no one around, is his position known?

I'm not sure about the second part of your statement. In many circumstances, you hide to prevent your position from becoming known, even if it's currently not known. "I hear someone coming! Quick, hide!"

Are you suggesting that everyone trying to hide in combat should have disadvantage on their Dexterity (Stealth) check because their position is known prior to do so? Because the condition for hiding is not to have your location not be known–but to not be seen–and the elf and halfling's ability are supposed to facilitate the condition to do so, not make it harder than it normally is.

Doesn't really all make sense if you ask me.

 

[fjw70]

I won't be making the halfling roll with disadvantage when hiding with naturally stealthy.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

Are you suggesting that everyone trying to hide in combat should have disadvantage on their Dexterity (Stealth) check because their position is known prior to do so? Because the condition for hiding is not to have your location not be known–but to not be seen–and the elf and halfling's ability are supposed to facilitate the condition to do so, not make it harder than it normally is.

Doesn't really all make sense if you ask me.

Which is the beauty of Mike's answer. If it doesn't make sense to you, then don't do it. However, if you think that the halfling shouldn't be able to just keep hiding behind the same ally over and over, they can still attempt it, just with disadvantage.

I've noted my reasoning many times, and they make sense to me, but that doesn't mean you have to agree.

The condition to ATTEMPT to hide is that you are not seen. But the condition to successfully Hide is for your Stealth check to beat the opponent's Perception check.

But the wording in the rules (and my own 'common sense' which may admittedly be flawed) leads me to the conclusion that the specific circumstances may have an impact on that check.

The phrases "Until you are discovered" - (note it's not "until you are seen), or
"you give away your position," or
"you give away your location," are part of that equation because once any of these occur you are no longer Hidden. You may still be unseen, and hidden from view. But you are not Hidden.

In addition, the fact that the Perception check itself doesn't require you to be seen or heard, you're negating the Hide attempt by noticing little things, intuition, deduction, or some other method.

So if you aren't Hidden, do you still have advantage on your attack? If you can attack without being seen, yes. But if you have to reveal yourself (from behind your ally, a pillar, a tree, a wall, whatever), then I think, "No." Since you are no longer Hidden, your opponent knows where you are, knows where you will emerge to attack, and as soon as you do, he sees you.

I don't see it as a stretch at all if you keep hiding in the same place that your opponent would be more Perceptive. If you're playing whack-a-mole (whack-a-halfling?) and there are 6 holes, it can be kind of tough. But if there's only one hole, it's easy.

Also note that the elf and halfling abilities do not make it easier to Hide. They give them additional opportunities to Hide that other creatures don't have. Making it easier would grant them a bonus or advantage.

Ultimately I question how many times a halfling could hide behind an ally, pop out and attack with advantage and hide again. My initial thought was that they couldn't. But I like Mike's solution better - they can still attempt it, it's just harder.

Randy

 

[Sir Brennen]

Are you suggesting that everyone trying to hide in combat should have disadvantage on their Dexterity (Stealth) check because their position is known prior to do so? Because the condition for hiding is not to have your location not be known–but to not be seen–and the elf and halfling's ability are supposed to facilitate the condition to do so, not make it harder than it normally is.

Umm... no. Not even close to what I was saying.

You stated that a character's position is always known before they try to hide, which is simply not true. There are instances where you hide well before your position is known at all. If the party's scout comes back and says "the guards are around the building and coming this way", then the party can all try to hide when the guards don't even know their position yet. The use of the words "always known" is what I was making a case against. In my experience, characters using Stealth before the enemy is aware of their presence is the most common use of it, not trying to disappear in the middle of combat.

 

[YourSwordIsMine]

The Ecology of the Lightfoot Halfling

The Lightfoot Halfling is not actually related to the standard Halfling genus, but is in fact a symbiotic organism. Upon reaching maturity the Lightfoot Halfling will seek out the anus of a Medium or larger sized host creature, whereupon it will spend the rest of its natural life cycle; only coming out to feed or to mate.

To increase their survival, the Lightfoot Halfling is most likely to choose the most healthy of Hosts usually Fighters or other front line combat professions. If needed, a Lightfoot Halfling will sometimes choose weaker hosts such as Wizards or ranged Classes as temporary shelters if they are caught outside their main host, either due to expediency or death of said host. This is usually only a short term arrangement until a more suitable host can be found.

The Lightfoot Halfling is a psychic feeder, drawing sustenance from the confusion and psychic trauma caused within the enemies of the Host Organism, when they realize that the Halfling that just attacked actually came out of the anus of the person it was fighting. While it might look like the Lightfoot Halfling is attacking with a weapon, it is part of the illusion created when the Halfling is feeding. The Illusory attack creates a psychic link with its victim; after it has made its “attack” the Lightfoot Halfling returns to the comfort of the Hosts anus, thus causing even more trauma which is absorbed through the psychic link.


Gives whole new meaning to Hobbit Hole...

 

[transtemporal]

As a counter-tactic to your tactic, the players can have halfling and meat-shield stand in a doorway or narrow space so the target can't get a better view of his big-footed tormentor

Oh yeah, thats nice, I like it!

If you're just coming back to the thread, did you see the twitter response from Mike Mearls a few posts back? He says it's reasonable to give the Halfling disadvantage to hiding repeatedly against the same target. That might convince the player to use his Cunning Action on Dash or Disengage to position themselves for some other tactic.

I did, and I hadn't thought of this. I'd thought of giving the enemy advantage (+5 to passive perception as it mentions on p60) but not disadvantage for the player on their hide roll. On the balance, I'd probably only apply one of those, unless it really was only the halfling and their ally on flat ground at high noon.

 

[Plaguescarred]

There are instances where you hide well before your position is known at all.

Ha i see and you are right, but in this instance i was more referring to an encounter with enemies around to hide from since we're discussing re-hiding from an enemy that spotted you using the same location.

So if you prefer, "your position is always known when you attempt to hide from enemies present."

I'm just saying that in certain circumstances, it's harder to fool the opponent, and thus you have disadvantage on your check. If you've ducked behind the same wall 3 times, and come out and attacked from the same place, then I'd rule you have disadvantage the next time you try it. But if you try to Hide and move to a new location you wouldn't have disadvantage because it's not what the target is expecting.

The answer uses a core mechanic, and was actually already in the rules: The DM can also decide that circumstances influence a roll in one direction or the other and grand advantage or impose disadvantage as a result. (pg 57).

Yeah i see your point. The rules to Hide don't allude that you could have disadvantage for hiding at a location the enemy is expecting you to be but of course the DM can always impose penalties as he see fit.

Where i am uncomfortable with is in the case of a halfling attempting to hide behind a larger ally, you should always expect it to disappear in the location it is obscured if you can see all other space around it otherwise....where you'd want it to go afterall, where the sun never shine!?

Why should doing it more than once become harder due to conditions that already prevail in the first attempt, and for which Naturally Stealthy doesn't factor?

 

[Mistwell]

From the thread revealing things in the PHB, Lygah posts about the Sharpshooter feat:

630: Sharpshooter:Attacking at Long Range doesn't impose disadvantage. Your Ranged Weapons attacks ignore half and 3/4 cover. You can chose when attacking with a proficient ranged weapon to take -5 attack for +10 Damage.

Interesting. This could be good for a lightfoot halfling rogue archer. Hide behind human ally, shoot foe at advantage. Advantage is roughly equal to +5 attack, so take the -5 attack for +10 damage (plus sneak attack damage plus dex plus weapon damage). Normally doing this is at a -2 to attack because your foe has half-cover (from the human you are behind) but this feat ignores that as well. Then hide again behind same human (likely at disadvantage on your hide check - unless you just killed your target, which is not so unlikely with a +10 damage) and do it again next round.

At first level you take Expertise with stealth (double proficiency). It's already a Dex check, which your rogue is good at. And you're a halfling, so you got +2 to dex as well. And you can already hide as a bonus action (Cunning Action).

And at 9th level, a rogue with the thief archetype gets advantage on such a stealth check. Disasdvantage cancels our advantage, so it would be done simply as a normal check.

And then at 11th level the rogue gets reliable talent - treating any roll of a 9 or less on such a stealth check to hide as a 10.

Seems like a pretty keen tactic.