D&D 4E Handling things like Riding and Craft with 4E Skills.

[BeauNiddle]

Why in the world would feats, skills, and/or dice be involved with mundane riding?

Or climbing, jumping, talking to another character, opening a lock, hiding behind something, remembering a fact about something. All pretty mundane.

You're right, heroes shouldn't be encumbered by mundane things, just get rid of skills altogether. If they want to do something mundane like craft something, they just do. Saves more time for combat.

I think you parsed amysrevenge wrong. They're not saying riding is mundane they are asking why you should make check for "mundane riding" i.e. for riding that is used in a mundane purpose.

Riding through the flowers in the meadow, riding from place to place, riding just for fun is mundane and should be considered automatic when recounting what happened.

Riding to escape the enemy, riding to show off and impress somebody, riding to control the mount in combat - that is not mundane and thus should be resolved using feats, skills, and/or dice. And the rules cover them nicely with the mounted combat feat or the skill challenge guidelines (A hard athletics check to gain ground, a hard acrobatic check to guide the mount whilst staying on)

 

[Verision]

It's D&D not B&B

I like to play D&D (Dungeons and Dragons) not B&B (Blacksmiths and Basket-weavers).

But, to actually answer the question, I would let any PC who wanted a craft or profession skill to have a craft or profession skill.
What's their skill check modifier? 1/2 lvl + appropriate stat mod + feats.
They want to be really good at it, you say? Let them take the Skill Training [whatever the heck they want] feat. There, +5. You go girl; weave that basket/make that bow.

Look, maybe the pro craft people will take offense to my post, but I just cannot fathom why people want to spend time doing mundane things in a fantasy game. If it's just background, then leave it as just background. If you are trying to make a profit, dear god why? I have to do mundane tasks 5 days a week to make a profit (horray for work!), I don't want to spend my free time pretending to perform mundane tasks for pretend money (though I will spend my free time killing pretend monsters for pretend money....and playing monopoly)

 

[Verision]

It's D&D not B&B

[sorry, I dun busted my interwebs an it dun doubled my post]

 

[amysrevenge]

Or climbing, jumping, talking to another character, opening a lock, hiding behind something, remembering a fact about something. All pretty mundane.

You're right, heroes shouldn't be encumbered by mundane things, just get rid of skills altogether. If they want to do something mundane like craft something, they just do. Saves more time for combat.

I suppose I could just as easily take it the other way and ask why there aren't skills for walking, running, turning corners, sitting down, going up the stairs, sleeping, eating dinner, and picking your nose...

 

[Greja]

I think it works fine. You don't need any additional rules/feats/skills for the mundane acts of riding a horse. For exceptional acts you could take mounted combat. For skills you could dedicate a feat for skill proficiency - although as a DM I would just allow characters to perform these actions as appropriate by their backgrounds. If you really want to tie in some form of creation, such as the forging of a particular sword to fulfil a destiny, then I would treat it as a ritual or use a series of other more exciting tests (only those glowing from divine guidance can string the bow, etc).

The ex-armorsmith doesnt need to roll any dice to pump out a new set of shoes for his horse. The wizard doesnt fall off the horse every five feet because he has a -1 in Ride. This speeds the gameplay up, avoids the non-heroic activities that the PCs are supposed to be above, and keeps the players working together. I've never had a campaign that players have had time to spend a week producing a suit of armor, or crafting a bow during their adventuring periods. I've also noticed when this happens in other campaigns the other 5 players watch in boredom as the crafter runs around town trying to save coppers on the best bow string for 15 minutes.

 

[The Little Raven]

picking your nose...

"*click* Your nose is now unlocked!"

 

[renau1g]

I've never really had player's actually use their craft (or profession) skills in my games, but I gave them extra points in 3e to apply to them for RP purposes, but really it was more a background mechanic. They were assumed to have created their relevent starting gear (and we always added magical enhancements rather than find magic treasure)

I guess we kinda played that portion like 4e all along, we just made it and used residium (or destiny points as we called it) to enhance our items.

 

[Euberon]

I think you parsed amysrevenge wrong. They're not saying riding is mundane they are asking why you should make check for "mundane riding" i.e. for riding that is used in a mundane purpose.

Riding through the flowers in the meadow, riding from place to place, riding just for fun is mundane and should be considered automatic when recounting what happened.

Riding to escape the enemy, riding to show off and impress somebody, riding to control the mount in combat - that is not mundane and thus should be resolved using feats, skills, and/or dice. And the rules cover them nicely with the mounted combat feat or the skill challenge guidelines (A hard athletics check to gain ground, a hard acrobatic check to guide the mount whilst staying on)

Riding, just riding. is a pretty basic skill, especially in a medieval setting. Hell, I rode a few times as a kid and I can climb up on a horse and steer it down the road decades later. I can't get it to jump a fence and hanging on at a gallop would be pure terror. For me, that would certainly be an athletics check. For an experienced rider, it would be ?? But that is a crux, right, adventurers don't take time to learn jumping and galloping, unless they learn it for combat, ie, combat riding. As far as carpentry goes and all that stuff, I would like to see a craft/profession system that remains static. you should not get better at your craft you never practice. if you do have knowledge/skills in an area, you should retain that. Its just a common sens loop hole that the designers have not / chose not to address.

 

[bganon]

I hope this doesn't mean that a level 10 warlock who, at one time, 2 decades ago, used to practice carpentry in his father's workshop, is better at crafting furniture than a carpenter who has been working the trade for the last 20 years, just because the warlock is level 10?

And, another decade later, when that warlock is level 20, is he now 2x as good at crafting furniture, even if he never touched a woodworking or carpentry tool in that entire decade?

The level 10 warlock with a background in carpentry knows enough to contract the furniture detailing out to master-level Imps.

The level 20 warlock does the same thing, except with Bone Devils. Turns out due to the whole "lack of flesh" thing, they've become really good at making comfy chairs.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

Basically it goes like this:

In 3.5 if your players were using the crafting skills as written, then they were doing it either
a) Purely for roleplaying reasons: there really wasn't any benefit to crafting something yourself. The money you saved was simply not worth the time.
b) Because the wizard had mandatory downtime, and you had nothing else to do with your time.
c) Because you wanted to get something that the DM wouldn't let you get out of the shops
d) Because you were cheesing out fabricate

...

That said, if you can come up with a feat that is purely beneficial to the character that ALSO helps with flavour, that's a totally different kettle of fish.

Finally - you mentioned that you allowed craft checks to produce magical items from magical components - well, that's pretty much what the enchant item ritual does. If you're willing to tinker with it a bit (ie - if you require that the PCs get specific items to perform enchantments), then there's no reason that you can't remove it's level restriction and use it to fuel quests (as I presume you're doing when you send the PCs to get components). I think the default level restriction on it is there simply to make players appreciate the magic items they find more in the first few levels of play.

Agree with your whole post, but want to extend it. The two really good reasons to have craft skills in a game:

1. The game is very focused on the mundane, and thus crafting is vitally important. You are far from town, there isn't much if any magic, and you need some more arrows to restocks your quiver. Scrounging for materials to mix with your recovered, damaged arrows becomes interesting.

2. At the opposite extreme, crafting is important because there really isn't much in the way of mundane. Magical arrows are practically required for anyone fighting something tougher than goblins or ogres. So if you are dedicated archer, you better be able to roll your own. "Enchant Weapon", let alone "Enchant Magic Item," is thus perhaps too broad for what the game is about. There really aren't any mundane crafts, because in this fantastical world, everyone uses a bit of magic. The maid needs a magic duster, maintained by herself, to possibly handle the level of dust thrown around by events. And ideally, all these magical crafts that replace the mundane are a bit dangerous. (That is how the maid became a 5th level commoner, BTW.)

D&D has never really been solely either of these things, though I'm sure some people have almost played it as the first, at low levels. And early versions definitely went after a bit of that vibe in their "operational" play, with sacks of provisions, 10' poles, and the like. Still, even then success was often based on operational concerns, but realized finally on having that magic wand with 3 charges left or that one extra healing potion -- i.e. the fantastical. Likewise, even 4E, one of the more fantastical versions, hasn't seen fit to require dangerous, magical feather dusters.

Basically, to discuss the role of mundane crafts and professions in a fantastical world is to imply some balance of magic as technology, or magic as a counterpoint to technology. If you want to do that, then the implications are far more pervasive than whether or not you have craft skills and what they do. There is nothing wrong with adding craft mechanics to 4E, of course, but there is something rather myopic about getting so caught up in that issue without seeing the larger implications for it mattering.