Ovinomancer
No flips for you!
*cough* like tone arguments *cough*
Harassment in gaming
- Thread starter Ancalagon
- Start date
*cough* like tone arguments *cough*
Max_Killjoy
First Post
To be clear, I'm not offering an excuse for anything there -- I'm pointing out that part of the problem of people not speaking up is caused by the sort of vitriol that's directed at anyone who does.
Tone does to some extent matter -- it has a role in shaping the discourse. Resorting to an over the top, vitriolic tone gives the people doing the actual bad things something to hide behind, a way to pretend that THEY are the victims. It can, as seen in this thread, distract from the crucial matters at hand.
Now, that doesn't mean that it's actually OK for people to fixate on tone to the exclusion of the actual issues -- it's only to point out that a certain "tone" can open the door to a conversational turn that veers entirely away from any actual discussion of the issue one wanted to illuminate.
Last edited:
billd91
Not your screen monkey (he/him) 🇺🇦🇵🇸🏳️⚧️
Nice try. But the tone argument is more akin to making the "white knight" accusation - it's deflection. It's an attempt to make the initial rant improper, and dismiss it.
Ovinomancer
No flips for you!
I think you missed the intent, there. I'm not talking about the initial rant at all. I was talking about irony.
MechaPilot
Explorer
Yeah, just like the whole "stop snitching" crap, it's just some elements of modern culture vilifying behavior, such as telling the truth to police and standing up for those being trodden upon, that is otherwise widely recognized as things done by decent, upstanding citizens.
Ovinomancer
No flips for you!
Yes, it does provide a shield, one that at least one poster here was using. However, that being true doesn't mean that presenting an insulting stereotype is okay. I'm of the opinion that most people can reasonably see the difference between those positions.
Max_Killjoy
First Post
At any rate, I don't think we disagree enough to keep diverting the discussion to discuss a diversion of the discussion... (it's just getting way too "meta" at this point).
Ovinomancer
No flips for you!
This. Is. The. INTERNET! Please stop being reasonable.
Morrus gave a directive. One person has gotten a tempban. Another has gotten booted from the thread for disregarding it.
You were told you could have that discussion, just not in this thread. But, you either cannot, or will not, listen. You will not leave it alone. Now, you will leave it alone, for at least a week.
For everyone: These discussions are allowed, but when one of the staff puts a limit on it, please respect that limit. Thank you.
Last edited:
I very much like the London police policy of believing reports of harassment and taking them seriously, but you will notice that that alone is not enough to take action against the accused person. It allows them to focus their attention on problem areas or check video recordings (if they have them) and so forth. But they don't just arrest the person and throw them in jail without evidence.
Likewise I think in any gaming gathering any reports should be believed and taken seriously, but you can't (or shouldn't) inflict a punishment on the accused just on the word of one person alone. And yes, it is very hard to prove a mumbled sexist statement or prove a grope that no one else saw, but that is true of many crimes. I don't like anyone getting away with a crime, but this is a case where the cure would be worse than the disease.
However I do think it is possible to get evidence in many cases. The apparently common "your character is being raped" scenario should have at least a half dozen witnesses. If truly none of them would come forward to corroborate the harassed person then there are several options depending on the environment.
If it is a private game you don't want to be with them anyway. They are a bunch of jerks, and it's not against the law to be jerks in private.
If it is a store then you have to talk to the owner/management. If the management backs up the jerks then you will need to take your business elsewhere. Other than that a bad Yelp review is about all you can do. Ideally you should be able to report them to the police. But unless they have a policy like London...
Honestly a convention should be the easiest place to get evidence. There are so many people it would be very hard to harass someone for very long without someone noticing the behavior.
Likewise I think in any gaming gathering any reports should be believed and taken seriously, but you can't (or shouldn't) inflict a punishment on the accused just on the word of one person alone. And yes, it is very hard to prove a mumbled sexist statement or prove a grope that no one else saw, but that is true of many crimes. I don't like anyone getting away with a crime, but this is a case where the cure would be worse than the disease.
However I do think it is possible to get evidence in many cases. The apparently common "your character is being raped" scenario should have at least a half dozen witnesses. If truly none of them would come forward to corroborate the harassed person then there are several options depending on the environment.
If it is a private game you don't want to be with them anyway. They are a bunch of jerks, and it's not against the law to be jerks in private.
If it is a store then you have to talk to the owner/management. If the management backs up the jerks then you will need to take your business elsewhere. Other than that a bad Yelp review is about all you can do. Ideally you should be able to report them to the police. But unless they have a policy like London...
Honestly a convention should be the easiest place to get evidence. There are so many people it would be very hard to harass someone for very long without someone noticing the behavior.
