Harassment in gaming

[Hussar]

It's questionable whether any of those things are harassment even if they were recorded.

You can't say that someone else's choice of words, body language, or taste in humor, is a personal attack just because it could be or you find it offensive no matter what. Offense is not the same thing as harassment.

Sorry, but, you don't get to tell other people when they have or have not been harassed. That's not how it works. See, to me, this is precisely the problem that this whole thread is about. That complaints are simply dismissed or ignored by the majority.

I accept it's there, but I think it's still a much safer atmosphere than say a bar or a in terms of the Internet, something like twitter or facebook. Your website is far safer, or free of bad language, etc. Most people posting seem sympathetic to anyone being harassed.

Why? Why is En World a safer atmosphere than other Internet forums? Is it because we're gamers and we're nicer people? Not bloody likely. It's because all complaints are treated seriously and the mods here are extremely active in shutting down bad behaviour.

IOW, to get that safe environment requires active responses and not just turning a blind eye and hoping for the best.

 

[Hussar]

I've seen it on both sides, but I think in many cases it's unintentional. One person posts about groping, another posts something about rape threats, another posts about people feeling offended, and in a busy thread like this it quickly becomes confusing which reply is to which problem.



I don't think anyone would disagree with that. Where we might find disagreement is over what the action should be. That's why I'm in favour of clear policies for behaviour. Otherwise, you potentially wind up dealing with opposing subjective feelings. One person "feels" behaviour X is acceptable and one "feels" it is not. Clear rules would certainly help in that case. In some cases, the law itself provides the policy--groping people is a pretty clear-cut case. When you get into the realm of what is "offensive", it is much murkier. Are groups allowed to make dick jokes at their own table or not? Are people allowed to wear revealing cosplay outfits or not? Are people allowed to wear t-shirts with political slogans or not? Without clear policies, the answers to these questions would be different depending on who you ask.




Well, again, that relates to what I said above. While it's obvious you shouldn't condone someone being groped or threatened, should you intervene if you pass a table and hear someone make a dick joke? Should you confront the two strangers whose heads swivel to watch a scantily-clad cosplayer walk by?

Yes, you probably should. At least the dick joke one. Is it appropriate for a venue that includes children? Not really. Did I come here to listen to you tell dick jokes (thus the difference between going to a Con and a comedy club)? Probably not. So, yeah, if people are being rude and obnoxious, then yes, as a community we should step in. And, even further, when someone does complain, those complaints should be treated as valid and action should be taken. Put it another way, if someone complains to you about you telling dick jokes, how should you respond? If someone complains to the management about dick jokes, how should you, as management, respond?

 

[DOTTIE]

Certainly, but even so, Blackstone's formulation has limits. Rhetorically, he chose a 10:1 ratio. If pressed, he might have relented to a 20:1 ratio. But would he go for 100:1 or 1000:1? At some point, he would be forced to accept a certain number of innocents will be harmed by a judicial/penal sytem, no matter how good, because there are all aspects of administering it are subject to human error.

In economics, we talk about the optimum level of criminal behavior or evil. At some point, the economic and social costs of combatting any given form of injustice are higher than benefits society, or even the individual harmed by the injustice.

That is the end result of careful investigation and trial, and it still goes bad. No one should be advocating for penalties without any investigation or trial.

 

[MechaPilot]

That is the end result of careful investigation and trial, and it still goes bad. No one should be advocating for penalties without any investigation or trial.

For criminal penalties? I agree.

However, the penalty of being pulled aside by a store owner or convention staff and asked to stop X offensive behavior with the understanding that if you do not you may face more significant penalties, including an expulsion or a permanent ban? No. If you believe you are wronged if and when you receive those more significant penalties, you still have the option of litigation to remedy that wrong.

No one is saying someone should go to jail or prison without a trial. I think most people aren't even saying that someone should be ejected immediately from a store or con upon their first non-criminal offense. However, if a person receives multiple complaints about harassing behavior, then the store or con should have the right to eject or ban that person without going to civil court, or without holding a mock court of their own.

 

[DOTTIE]

Sorry, but, you don't get to tell other people when they have or have not been harassed. That's not how it works. See, to me, this is precisely the problem that this whole thread is about. That complaints are simply dismissed or ignored by the majority.



Why? Why is En World a safer atmosphere than other Internet forums? Is it because we're gamers and we're nicer people? Not bloody likely. It's because all complaints are treated seriously and the mods here are extremely active in shutting down bad behaviour.

IOW, to get that safe environment requires active responses and not just turning a blind eye and hoping for the best.

It's not at issue whether you feel you are being harassed. What matters is the grounds you show for someone to think it's been done intentionally to you as harassment, and not by coincidence. If you are offended by people talking at a table, for instance, even if it went against the policy of the venue what they were talking about, if they don't even know you're there listening how could you show they are harassing you?

 

[MechaPilot]

It's not at issue whether you feel you are being harassed. What matters is the grounds you show for someone to think it's been done intentionally to you as harassment, and not by coincidence. If you are offended by people talking at a table, for instance, even if it went against the policy of the venue what they were talking about, if they don't even know you're there listening how could you show they are harassing you?

Harassment does not have to be intentional. Surely, there are some who think referring to the new female hire as the "new hot piece of _____" is either appropriate or even complimentary. Their intention means jack if their actions create a hostile environment.

Likewise, in the example you just posted, the complaint of harassment would not require any proof of intent to harass to take action on it. Those who run the venue should take action simply based on the reported behavior being a violation of venue policy.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

For criminal penalties? I agree.

However, the penalty of being pulled aside by a store owner or convention staff and asked to stop X offensive behavior with the understanding that if you do not you may face more significant penalties, including an expulsion or a permanent ban? No. If you believe you are wronged if and when you receive those more significant penalties, you still have the option of litigation to remedy that wrong.

No one is saying someone should go to jail or prison without a trial. I think most people aren't even saying that someone should be ejected immediately from a store or con upon their first non-criminal offense. However, if a person receives multiple complaints about harassing behavior, then the store or con should have the right to eject or ban that person without going to civil court, or without holding a mock court of their own.

Bingo.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Harassment does not have to be intentional. Surely, there are some who think referring to the new female hire as the "new hot piece of _____" is either appropriate or even complimentary. Their intention means jack if their actions create a hostile environment.

Likewise, in the example you just posted, the complaint of harassment would not require any proof of intent to harass to take action on it. Those who run the venue should take action simply based on the reported behavior being a violation of venue policy.

Exactly.

 

[tomBitonti]

Harrumph. Reasonableness must certainly apply. I read about a case of attempted rape because a person on one side of a street felt threatened by a person on the other side. There are police shootings today which rest on very thin grounds of potential harm.

I think it's OK to have a duscussion with someone over inappropriate behavior. But without clear evidence, there doesn't seem to be more to be done directly with the person who was accused.

What seems to be called for is better awareness and sensitivity, and good training to counteract unwanted behavior. What we do in the moment to moment matters a lot. A good way to start countering harassment is to promote all around respectfulness. Set a high standard and help the folks around you to meet that standard.

Thx!
TomB

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Harassment does not have to be intentional. Surely, there are some who think referring to the new female hire as the "new hot piece of _____" is either appropriate or even complimentary. Their intention means jack if their actions create a hostile environment.

Likewise, in the example you just posted, the complaint of harassment would not require any proof of intent to harass to take action on it. Those who run the venue should take action simply based on the reported behavior being a violation of venue policy.

I'm your mind if I tell a funny story about puss in boots (from the shrek movies) and someone over heard it out of context and reports me as Useing the very close to that word that is to describe female annatony...is that harassment? Of they felt harassed?

What if I brought up this very thread at my flgs and someone took a story out of context and complained to Matt (manager) that those guys over there are talking about rape...if he laughs it off and explains is he also now gulty of not taking a harassment charge seriusly?

My nephew played basketball in a youth league...in the middle of hf time a coach from the other team came up to me swearing I was starting at "his girl" and threatened to break my face...the red got him called down and then told me I shouldn't stare...I was in shock I didn't even know who I was starting at...it turned out his girlfriend was sitting next to my mom...they were score keepers. I was looking at my mom, the players grandmother... So in that very real exams who was the harraser? Me for being looking in the wrong direction, Becuse 2 people felt I was harassing, or the coach that threatened me for it (that in my mind was a out of the blue)?