I just want to make a few points:
1. I don't care what your day job is or what your education level at [insert name of school here] happens to be. We all need to understand the concept of relevant education here. A pipefitter who spends his night hours studying medieval history will be much more educated in that realm than a college professor in Higher Order Mathematics. Do not assume that because your grade level is less than mine (or vice versa) that you are less educated in a given area. Certainly don't assume that you are less intelligent.
2. That being said, I *am* intelligent and I happen to be very well read. I assume that most of you here put yourselves in that category, too, so it comes as a bit of a surprise when I read here that some of you find Harn to be at about the same reading level of D&D products.
Selion. Hides. Virgaters. Cottars. Villeins. Beadles. Bailiffs. Commons. Nobles. Gentry. Gentle. Shires. Hundreds.
I owned literally every 2e book I could get my hands on and none of them - none - had anything even remotely at this level of jargon. You can honestly learn a great deal about real medieval feudal structure from Harn, from the byzantine Royal Administration on down to the farming practices in dual rotation fields. The level of writing, the level of depth of material, and the above average level of jargon alone set it at a new standard for anything I had ever read - including D&D. Perhaps 3e material is better written, but the 2e stuff I own is written to a measurably lower level, IMO.
My wife confirmed my thesis, at least in her mind, when she used the HarnPlayer and the PHB as comparative texts to analyze when she wrote her Masters thesis in Language and Professional Writing. The dictionary didn't even help her with HarnPlayer because most of the terms used were archaic enough that they didn't even appear (she used my medieval reference library to look them up). From the illos on down to the layout and sentence structure, she found that the PHB was intended for a measureably younger audience than the HarnPlayer. Once again, this was 2e, so I am reserving judgement on 3e stuff.
Methinks that some of you who read Harn easily despite average or lower education levels are a bit more educated than you let on ... or that you are willing to admit to yourself. Remember, education doesn't always come from a school.
Now, before I get my head bit off ...
a) Above, I am simply saying that my personal experience matches with what the companies attempted to do and that at least one person I know who does textual analysis for a living has verified this independently. If you disagree or if your personal concept suffers because you can't imagine being proud of reading something written for teenagers, then feel free to disregard this entire post and to go play D&D with your friends.
However, nothing you say or do will mitigate the fact that 3e *was* written for a mostly teenaged audience by WotC ... and that, despite this, there is nothing inherently wrong or embarassing about enjoying those products as an adult.
b) Both companies admit to skewing their products look, layout and writing level to a specific age and education level. If you take umbrage at the implications behind their choices, then at least get angry with the right people and write WotC or CGI instead of flaming those of us who simply restate those corporate choices here in the forum.
c) From my personal perspective, I find it rather sad when companies from the newspapers on down write to satisfy the lowest reading level of their intended demographic. I consider it a mild corporate slight on "the rest of us". I also feel that such a decision inevitably lowers the literacy level of society as a whole. If 3e *is* written to a higher reading demographic than my 2e books, then I will be pleasantly surprised.
d) I personally enjoy literature from the level of Cat in the Hat all the way up to 3" thick computer language references. The Cat in the Hat was intended for someone my son's age - and I don't think that this is in dispute - so should I feel angry, hurt or embarassed by reading it if someone points out that it is intended for children? Surely we are all adult enough in this forum to admit that we each tend to have individual preferences in gaming or that we can enjoy different types of literature at different times, in different moods, and for different reasons? The Cat in the Hat excites my whimsy and my love of rhyme and has come to represent some very needed quality time with my son. The computer references excite my intellect, try my patience, and incite my lust for learning. Both types of books are highly enjoyable - each in their own way.
e) Nothing said here in the forums can ever have any effect in your life away from the computer unless you obsess and take it away from the screen with you. Does it really matter to you that a faceless person using a pseudonym on a forum thinks that the game you play is for kids? If it does, then you have a problem with attending too strongly to other people's opinions.
f) D&D, Harn, Shadowlands, GURPS ... they are all just nebulous concepts written in ink in a book. Inanimate objects cannot express loyalty, so I am astounded by how many fans are loyal to what amounts to a stack of paper.
1. I don't care what your day job is or what your education level at [insert name of school here] happens to be. We all need to understand the concept of relevant education here. A pipefitter who spends his night hours studying medieval history will be much more educated in that realm than a college professor in Higher Order Mathematics. Do not assume that because your grade level is less than mine (or vice versa) that you are less educated in a given area. Certainly don't assume that you are less intelligent.
2. That being said, I *am* intelligent and I happen to be very well read. I assume that most of you here put yourselves in that category, too, so it comes as a bit of a surprise when I read here that some of you find Harn to be at about the same reading level of D&D products.
Selion. Hides. Virgaters. Cottars. Villeins. Beadles. Bailiffs. Commons. Nobles. Gentry. Gentle. Shires. Hundreds.
I owned literally every 2e book I could get my hands on and none of them - none - had anything even remotely at this level of jargon. You can honestly learn a great deal about real medieval feudal structure from Harn, from the byzantine Royal Administration on down to the farming practices in dual rotation fields. The level of writing, the level of depth of material, and the above average level of jargon alone set it at a new standard for anything I had ever read - including D&D. Perhaps 3e material is better written, but the 2e stuff I own is written to a measurably lower level, IMO.
My wife confirmed my thesis, at least in her mind, when she used the HarnPlayer and the PHB as comparative texts to analyze when she wrote her Masters thesis in Language and Professional Writing. The dictionary didn't even help her with HarnPlayer because most of the terms used were archaic enough that they didn't even appear (she used my medieval reference library to look them up). From the illos on down to the layout and sentence structure, she found that the PHB was intended for a measureably younger audience than the HarnPlayer. Once again, this was 2e, so I am reserving judgement on 3e stuff.
Methinks that some of you who read Harn easily despite average or lower education levels are a bit more educated than you let on ... or that you are willing to admit to yourself. Remember, education doesn't always come from a school.
Now, before I get my head bit off ...
a) Above, I am simply saying that my personal experience matches with what the companies attempted to do and that at least one person I know who does textual analysis for a living has verified this independently. If you disagree or if your personal concept suffers because you can't imagine being proud of reading something written for teenagers, then feel free to disregard this entire post and to go play D&D with your friends.
However, nothing you say or do will mitigate the fact that 3e *was* written for a mostly teenaged audience by WotC ... and that, despite this, there is nothing inherently wrong or embarassing about enjoying those products as an adult.
b) Both companies admit to skewing their products look, layout and writing level to a specific age and education level. If you take umbrage at the implications behind their choices, then at least get angry with the right people and write WotC or CGI instead of flaming those of us who simply restate those corporate choices here in the forum.
c) From my personal perspective, I find it rather sad when companies from the newspapers on down write to satisfy the lowest reading level of their intended demographic. I consider it a mild corporate slight on "the rest of us". I also feel that such a decision inevitably lowers the literacy level of society as a whole. If 3e *is* written to a higher reading demographic than my 2e books, then I will be pleasantly surprised.
d) I personally enjoy literature from the level of Cat in the Hat all the way up to 3" thick computer language references. The Cat in the Hat was intended for someone my son's age - and I don't think that this is in dispute - so should I feel angry, hurt or embarassed by reading it if someone points out that it is intended for children? Surely we are all adult enough in this forum to admit that we each tend to have individual preferences in gaming or that we can enjoy different types of literature at different times, in different moods, and for different reasons? The Cat in the Hat excites my whimsy and my love of rhyme and has come to represent some very needed quality time with my son. The computer references excite my intellect, try my patience, and incite my lust for learning. Both types of books are highly enjoyable - each in their own way.
e) Nothing said here in the forums can ever have any effect in your life away from the computer unless you obsess and take it away from the screen with you. Does it really matter to you that a faceless person using a pseudonym on a forum thinks that the game you play is for kids? If it does, then you have a problem with attending too strongly to other people's opinions.
f) D&D, Harn, Shadowlands, GURPS ... they are all just nebulous concepts written in ink in a book. Inanimate objects cannot express loyalty, so I am astounded by how many fans are loyal to what amounts to a stack of paper.
