Harniacs vs. d20/D&D players

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

I forgot to mention that when players can't afford to solve their problems with magic, it really forces them to rethink how to do many things that are simply taken for granted in a high fantasy/high magic game. I think it's good to give 'em a little mental workout besides "spider climb, levitate, fly" to get around an obstacle, or gathering info the old fashioned way instead of "augury, divination, commune", or finding alternate means of defeating enemies instead of "magic missile, fireball, lightning bolt, flame strike". It suddenly puts players into a panic when they can't rely on their old tricks, so they end up having trouble with simple things, even crossing pits! A DM's fantasy come true, watching players struggle against even rudimentary challenges! BWAHAHAHAHA!!!

 

[Desdichado]

So, KK, do you use the Sanity rules too, then?

I'd like to come up with a system whereby I could convert D&D spells into something like Cthulhu (but without the Sanity.) Ability drains and wisdom drains (to simulate the Sanity loss?) would probably do it.

In other words, I don't even mind keeping the same spells in the PHB and elsewhere, but I'd like a way to make players scared to rely on them, and only use them for real tough spots when they literally don't have much other choice.

Maybe I oughtta start another thread by now, though, since I've drifted pretty far afield...

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

So, KK, do you use the Sanity rules too, then?

I'd like to come up with a system whereby I could convert D&D spells into something like Cthulhu (but without the Sanity.) Ability drains and wisdom drains (to simulate the Sanity loss?) would probably do it.

In other words, I don't even mind keeping the same spells in the PHB and elsewhere, but I'd like a way to make players scared to rely on them, and only use them for real tough spots when they literally don't have much other choice.

I'm using the Sanity rules--not just for spells, but for scary situations (finding dead bodies, meeting monsters, friend dying in your arms, etc.).

Here is my current conversion system (using Sanity).

CONVERTING D&D SPELLS
The costs in ability damage and Sanity of various D&D spells can be roughly estimated as follows:

0-Level: 1 Sanity point.
1st-level: 1d4 Sanity points.
2nd-level: 2 Str, Con, Int or Wis damage and/or 1d4 Sanity Points.
3rd-level: 3 Str, Con, Int or Wis damage and/or 1d6 Sanity points.
4th-level: 4 Str, Con, Int or Wis damage and 1d8 Sanity points.
5th-level: 4 Str, Con, Int or Wis damage and 1d10 Sanity points.
6th-level: 6 Str, Con, Int or Wis damage and 2d6 Sanity points.
7th-level: 10 Str, Con, Int or Wis damage and 1d20 Sanity points.
8th-level: 10 Str, Con, Int or Wis damage and 2d10 Sanity points.
9th-level: 20 Str, Con, Int or Wis damage and 3d10 Sanity points.

Making Spells Permanent: Most non-instantaneous spells that target a creature can be made permanent in duration or until a specified condition is met (such as a curse). To accomplish this, alter the ability damage of the spell to permanent Con drain (1 point for 4th level spells or under, 2 points for 5th to 8th-level spells, and 20 points for 9th-level spells); increase the Sanity point cost to the next higher level (so a 5th-level spell made permanent would do 2d6 Sanity points rather than the normal 1d10.


USING THESE RULES WITHOUT SANITY
Change Sanity to "Aura" (representing life force/soul). All characters receive a starting Aura score at 1st level equal to Charisma score x 5. Bonus Aura points are 1d6 or 2d6 (DM's choice) per level gained, plus 1d3 per story/mission goal accomplished). Max aura = 99 minus character's combined Knowledge: Arcana and Spellcraft ranks. Any Questions?


FYI: You might try looking at the Mage class in Pulp Heroes (Polyhedron in Dungeon #90 or 91) for inspiration.

PS: Holy crap! The boards are actually fast again! About time.

 

[bozzutoman]

What's that smell?

Ugh... another case of ridiculous comparisons:

Macs are better than PCs!
PCs are better than Macs!

Apples are better than oranges!
Oranges are better than apples!

Dodge Vipers are better than AMC Gremlins!
AMC Gremlins are... uhm... nevermind.

Anyway...

What are you comparing?
• Harnmaster vs. D&D-3E d20?
• Harnworld vs. Greyhawk? vs. Forgotten Realms?
• Harniacs vs. D&Ders?

There appears to be no objective way to compare any of these. Only personal experience and preferences.

To get an idea of where I'm coming from allow me to encapsulate my RPG resume: I started in OD&D back in `79 eventually moving to 1E. I evolved from plain kill-and-plunder to monte haul epics to plots of intrigue. I quit during 2E exploring countless games including Harn. After a few years of drifting, I quit RPGs entirely. Early last year I returned for 3E...


IMX:

As for D&D, I like the easily adaptable nature of it. It's a little too simplistic at times, but it's a payoff for ease of use. As a DM, it is my responsibility to determine where and how these moments are resolved.

I generally use my own campaign worlds so Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms are unfamiliar territory beyond hearsay and a few adapted supplements/modules. They pretty much run the gamut in detail and style... but are for the most part well done.

The world of Harn is a meticuouly detailed campaign with more stuff than anyone would ever need. But beyond detail, it is full of realistic dark-age flavour all the way down to very inspiring Eric Hotz artwork (at least in the original version).

If you want a world with exquisite maps, tons of detail, set in a low population, low magic world... then this is the place for you. Otherwise steer clear.

Harnmaster is equally rich and detailed... but WAY too much bookwork for my tastes. With all the derived stats and skills, my first character took an hour to make.

Roleplayers have their own preferences and will always clash somewhere. I prefer more cinematic stories and D&D does that for me. HM is wonderfully real, but just too damn much bean-counting. Yes, I suppose as a few have said, you could declare that only the most intelligent would play with Harnmaster... you could also say HM is only for the most anal-retentive.

There's plenty that'll argue one's better than the other, but few that can bridge the gap and enjoy both.

Apples and oranges... Macs and PCs...

BTW: ColonelHardisson - Geeks calling geeks geeks. Too rich.

 

[Desdichado]

Thanks, KK. That may be a little bit too extreme for my tastes, and I don't like the no-San at low level spells. I might use this as a basis to cobble together a custom spell-casting class for a low fantasy campaign setting I've been tossing around for some time, though, without the SAN rules, and making the ability damage temporary. Those mages'll still be able to cast a few spells, but I'll up the damage on lower level spells a little and maybe shrink it some on the highest levels, and maybe make the ability damage by CON only...

I dunno. I'll come up with something. Using your rules as a base!

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

I'm not going to involve myself in discussions of which game is better anymore, LOL. To each their own.

What I would prefer to discuss is how to integrate Harn (the setting) and d20 (the rules), allowing for a greater number of people to use Harn without having to learn HarnMaster rules. I'd like those interested in such a setting to give Harn a try, or take some of it and use it in their homebrew or wherever, because Harn has a lot to offer. I would also like to discuss using Harnic elements in d20 games/settings.

HarnWorld is ideal for low fantasy, low population, low magic "gritty" games. It is loaded with more detail and information than most will probably ever need--but this is good, because if you need it, it's there. I don't think I need tectonic plate movements, LOL, but it's better to have them than not in case the question ever comes up (such as plotting earthquakes and continental drift...). That said, there is a ton of information you WILL need included, and in a level of detail you won't find in any other published setting, if you can even find it all. If you like a healthy dose of good old medieval earth with a dash of fantasy to spice things up, give Harn a try, or perhaps Ars Magica (which I am unfamiliar with but have heard good things about).

Making d20 compatible with Harn is a bit tricky (frex: I spent 3 weeks tweaking the rules before I was happy, only to have Swashbuckling Adventures come out and improve on several of my ideas--curse you, Mike Mearls! ). There are several things you can do to run Harn with d20:

1. Don't change a thing. You will get a much more detailed game world that is much higher fantasy (and more illogical because Harn was not written to take such things into consideration when formulating its history or societies). However, this could be a lot of fun, especially if you don't have a lot of time to tweak the rules. Doubtless, some of Harniacal brethren will condemn such blasphemy, but it's your Harn. Do with it what you want and have fun!

2. House Rule it. This requires a bit of work (okay, a lot of work). However, it is very rewarding and makes the setting all the more personal to you, because you've made up the rules as well as the adventures. The amount of tweaking depends on your play style and desired result. You can make Harn no fantasy (like medieval earth), low fantasy (default), middle fantasy (Greyhawk) or high fantasy (like Forgotten Realms). Harn probably works best at middle fantasy or lower levels. It would be extremely easy to yank all magic and monsters from Harn with minimal complications, if any. Likewise, it wouldn't be that hard to add in a bit extra in the way of monsters and magic without messing things up to get middle fantasy. Adding in a ton of monsters and magic without regard for all the ramifications destroys the integrity of the setting (without major work), but I don't see it as impossible. If you don't care about maintaining the integrity of Harnic history, politics, culture, etc., you could turn Harn into another Forgotten Realms or Scarred Lands easily (not meant as a slam!--just using them as examples of high fantasy heroic settings you're all familiar with).

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

Thanks, KK. That may be a little bit too extreme for my tastes, and I don't like the no-San at low level spells. I might use this as a basis to cobble together a custom spell-casting class for a low fantasy campaign setting I've been tossing around for some time, though, without the SAN rules, and making the ability damage temporary. Those mages'll still be able to cast a few spells, but I'll up the damage on lower level spells a little and maybe shrink it some on the highest levels, and maybe make the ability damage by CON only...

I dunno. I'll come up with something. Using your rules as a base!

Thanks! Say, did you see what I said about replacing the CofC Sanity stat with an Aura stat? That way, a cantrip costs 1 Aura point to cast. This system doesn't use Sanity at all for anything.

Ability score damage is temporary. Drain is permanent. 95% of spells only do temporary damage.

 

[Ace]

That has been my experience as well.

It used to be that way but in my area the gamers are actually unfriendly, unintersted in new players or new game systems.

Makes for very bad gaming.

 

[Ace]

I forgot to mention that when players can't afford to solve their problems with magic, it really forces them to rethink how to do many things that are simply taken for granted in a high fantasy/high magic game. I think it's good to give 'em a little mental workout besides "spider climb, levitate, fly" to get around an obstacle, or gathering info the old fashioned way instead of "augury, divination, commune", or finding alternate means of defeating enemies instead of "magic missile, fireball, lightning bolt, flame strike". It suddenly puts players into a panic when they can't rely on their old tricks, so they end up having trouble with simple things, even crossing pits! A DM's fantasy come true, watching players struggle against even rudimentary challenges! BWAHAHAHAHA!!!

I am so NOT joining your game

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

I am so NOT joining your game

Not even for a Scooby Snack?