Harniacs vs. d20/D&D players

[Hammerhead]

Effective spell use is, in many cases, a more difficult problem than solving things without magic. Sure, you can move around obstacles easily with spider climb, blast foes with a quick and easy magic missile, or use divinations to gather info. However, can you do all 3, and have enough spells to cover each one?

And then there's the fun of misusing spells. Rock to Mud, anyone?

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

Effective spell use is, in many cases, a more difficult problem than solving things without magic. Sure, you can move around obstacles easily with spider climb, blast foes with a quick and easy magic missile, or use divinations to gather info. However, can you do all 3, and have enough spells to cover each one?

And then there's the fun of misusing spells. Rock to Mud, anyone?

Good point, and very true. Effective spell use is a top priority for casters regardless of game or rules.

 

[Desdichado]

I've been working your description of the CoC rules into something that works sorta similarly (but not so drastic) and hopefully balanced for a low-magic campaign setting (where the non-magic classes don't get loads of magic weapons, for example.) All the spells (except for a few) are still available, but you really think twice (or more) about casting them, especially the high level ones.

Let me finish inputing the spell lists (minorly tweaked from the PHB) for this new mage class, and I'll post it in the House Rules section. I also have a non-magical ranger heavily based on the WoT Woodsman that I want to add to the same page, and a non-supernatural martial artist based on a combination of the WoT algai'd'siswai and the PHB monk.

 

[William Ronald]

Originally posted by Colonel_Hardisson

What follows is a general rant, not necessarily inspired by anyone or anything in this thread...but it seems in keeping with what the thread is discussing.

Y'know something? The more I see arguments along the lines of "[insert any given game here] is for [insert flattering portrayal of aforementioned game's fan base], while [insert either D&D3e or d20] appeals only to [insert unflattering portrayal of D&D3e or d20 fans]," the more tired I become of gaming, or at least online gaming communities. I see this kind of reasoning on HackMaster boards, boards devoted to D&D of editions other than 3e, and boards devoted to RPGs from GURPS to Harn to Chaosium's BRP to...well, you get the picture. And, yes, we see the reverse, where D&D3e or d20 is seen as the be all and end all of RPGs, and the rest suck.

I keep saying it - it's geeks calling geeks geeks.

Almost every gamer I've met in real life has been reasonable, friendly, and willing to give new and different games a try. I've never run across, in real life, the sheer vitriol and venom found online when it comes to the relative merits of one game against another. Is it because people who hold such hateful opinions have no other outlet for their venting? Or is it simply people being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative? I don't know.

I'm especially mystified by people who play really obscure games - and Harn, for example, in the scheme of things, is pretty obscure, in the objective sense of the word - that are extremely vocal about their disdain for other RPGs. There really aren't that many RPG players out there to begin with; why alienate potential players? I don't know about everywhere, but I know that in my area, which is a major metroplitan area, there aren't enough gamers (and thus games) for someone to afford the luxury of pooh-poohing the possibility of playing a game that might not be one's first choice. More than likely, someone with such an attitude would not be gaming at all, or doing online gaming. Online gaming is an interesting alternative, and very handy for someone who lives in a remote area or is housebound, but gaming really is a social endeavor that is best when done face-to-face. I think keeping an open mind, and trying to acquire a taste for other RPGs, would be a good way to go.

I've played plenty of RPGs over the years. I'm lucky in that my favorite has been D&D. But, believe me, the times that I had the opportunity to game, even if it was a game I normally wouldn't choose to play, I took the opportunity and had fun. I've seen people vow things like "I would never play 3e (or whatever game)! Death would be better!" Come on. Such a person who is really so dogmatically inflexible must not actually game, but rather sits with the books, alone, rolling up characters for games never played. And maybe they deserve such a fate, for being so fanatical about something that should be taken lightly - a game.

Maybe I just need a break from this stuff...


__________________

I just read this entire thread today, and found much of it disappointing. Indeed, reading through much of this thread was depressing and sometimes infuriating.

There has been too much animosity here for my tastes. I believe that for such a relatively unimportant thing as gaming, people should let their personal preferences dictate what they like.

Instead, I hear people claim superiority of one thing or another.
I have seen more pride than I have seen at political conventions.

Perhaps we need to remind ourselves that different people have different tastes. This does not imply superiority, only difference.

I run my own homebrew campaign. However, I make it a point not to go around denigrating other people's preferences. Most settings and most games must have something appealing in it or no one would buy them.

In some sense, I have found some of the discussion quite embarassing as a gamer. We ask for tolerance in a larger society, but we sometimes seem reluctant to tolerate one another.

bozzutoman, I think you and Colonel Hardisson hit the nail on the head. Each of us have our own likes and dislikes. Also, I think trying to find players for some games is a little difficult.

Personally, I enjoy history and literature. I have used various sources for my own campaign, and have had sessions where no combat occurs. However, I do not believe this makes me different from someone who exclusively uses a pre-packaged setting who happens to like a lot of combat. I think we need to realize that just because someone has different tastes does not make them an inferior person. (Some of the posts in this thread would appear to imply otherwise.)

If we were all identical, I think the world would be a very dull place. Perhaps we need to celebrate our differences rather than condemn them.

I thought the whole point of gaming was to have fun. Somehow, that seems to have become a point that has vanished at times in this thread.

 

[Desdichado]

William Ronald, that is so three pages ago. Try to keep up!

Anyway, I posted (over in the House Rules section) my custom magic system. It's not as scary as KK's CoC magic, but it's one that will definately make spell-casters different and more appropriate for a low fantasy. Still a fantasy, for sure, but a much lower level of magic than D&D standard.

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

I posted (over in the House Rules section) my custom magic system. It's not as scary as KK's CoC magic, but it's one that will definately make spell-casters different and more appropriate for a low fantasy. Still a fantasy, for sure, but a much lower level of magic than D&D standard.

Cool. Joshua, I'll check out your system in house rules and post my thoughts.

 

[Ace]

Not even for a Scooby Snack?

Well for a scooby snack and if you ran it in GURPS ----



Seriously though, I belive each system suits a different need. For power up gaming and such nothing beats 3e.

Only Rolemaster comes close

For low fantasy I prefer GURPS or The Riddle of Steel

YMMV

 

[Ace]

I just read this entire thread today, and found much of it disappointing. Indeed, reading through much of this thread was depressing and sometimes infuriating.

There has been too much animosity here for my tastes. I believe that for such a relatively unimportant thing as gaming, people should let their personal preferences dictate what they like.

SNIP

If we were all identical, I think the world would be a very dull place. Perhaps we need to celebrate our differences rather than condemn them.

I thought the whole point of gaming was to have fun. Somehow, that seems to have become a point that has vanished at times in this thread.

Both you and the good Colonel hit the nail on the head. There is only one real rule zero---

Is everyone having a good time?

If the styles of the players are that different that is impacts the real rule zero (and I have had this problem more than once) than don't make yourself miserable get one or more of

Another game, Another group, Another hobby

Gaming is supposed to be fun.

OPen your mind, try new stuff and don't be afraid to enjoy it

Who knows, change might be just what you need and if the new game is getting to rarified for you

you can always dust off the old Players Handbooks grab some polyhedrals and kick orc butt.

Trust me on this, the gaming world isn't ever going to dump D&D for any game system.

It will always be there waiting patiently for you

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

You know, I fell in love with GURPS point buy character creation the minute I saw it. But we could never figure out how to play the game, LOL. It just didn't work for us. After a couple sessions of endless d6 rolling and flipping pages, we dropped it. That's why we loved the Skills & Powers point buy system in 2.5e--it was still D&D, but with optional point buy! Yay! The GURPS sourcebooks are great, however. GURPS Middle Ages I is back in print (revised), BTW. Just saw it today and it is very nice. Of course, having Harn, I didn't see anything in there that I didn't already know about medieval times, LOL, except the GURPS book is historical England not fantasy (although Harn is heavily based on 12th century England). Harn makes a Lionheart book that is a historical England sourcebook.

 

[William Ronald]

Thanks, Ace.

To me, the whole point of gaming is fun. If I did not enjoy gaming, I would spend my time and money on something else.

I think having a hobby where people have different tastes just makes it more enjoyable.

Also, the last time I checked I did not have all the answers. And probably not even all of the questions.