HARP vs D&D

[Nisarg]

In my mind the main reason I wouldn't bother trying HARP is that the game is 90% of time explained to me or defined as "not D&D / d20". It's rarely explained or advertised on its own merits, but as a combination of comparisons and knocks vs. D&D.

I realise this is pretty small of me, but I do have some emotional investment in D&D.

ps. 3.0E referred to as Rolemaster lite? Thats funny .. and not that far-fetched (I've played Rolemaster on and off since '91, mostly off)

I don't know why people insist on trying to sell their product by trying to argue its "better" than the game your supposed audience already loves. That trick never works. Its also the very standard of the "fantasy heartbreaker", ie. a system designed to be a vanilla fantasy setting motivated by its creator's pet ideas about what's "wrong" with D&D.

The problem with someone trying to create and then market a "better" D&D is that most players who already play D&D feel that D&D is good. If the first words out of your mouth trying to sell a product is "this is WAY better than D&D, D&D is a bad system" then someone who is a fan of D&D will not be very likely to take you seriously.

Nisarg

 

[Rasyr]

I did like the sound of magic, which seemed much better than magic in RM. The flip side is that HARP is still new, so there's a fairly lmiited selection of spells in comparison to D&D. This critique also spills over into other areas, such as the selection of monsters and equipment (though, of course, there are supplements coming out that address this).

Just out of curiosity, how many spells are in the PHB? Compare that to HARP, but don't forget that each spell in HARP is customizable at the time of casting. (note: I have no idea how many finally ended up in HARP - somewhere about 100, I think, and I have no idea how many are in the PHB).

One of the issues is that HARP IS new, and while the support is coming, it does not have the support of umpteen dozen other companies writing products for it.

If you want to make comparisons,it is best to compare the core boks against core books......

Yes, the PDFs of both College of Magics and Monsters: A Field Guide are both available now, and we are currently waiting for CoM to come back from the printers. It has, in addition to 100+ more spells, a complete spell creation system so that players may also make their own spells...

In general, HARP did sound pretty cool, and the books have some very nice art. Overall, though, I'm passing on it unless I come across a good deal, simply because the overall gameplay experience described by the system did not seem that much different to me than D&D.

Would the PDFs count as a good deal? I see that you know about the trade-in offer. The PDFs are good quality, and comepletely DRM free (for those who care about such).

I can't see selling my groups on it over D&D, a game we know how to play and which serves the same function. If I'm going to invest in another fantasy game (particularly one that has a low likelihood of being played), I lean more towards games that are more distinct from D&D, such as Burning Wheel or Ars Magica.

Recently, my boss gave a copy of HARP to a retailer friend of his. This retailer is a Silent Death fanatic (ICE's miniatures space combat game), but his group has only ever played D&D for rpgs. They gave it a try. They liked it so much that they are now playing HARP regularly (the retailer's wife is the GM) and are not planning on going back.

As Nisarg pointed out, you can often tell about a game by reading it, however that is not true with all games, and I think that applies to HARP.

mhensley, I'd suggest perusing http://www.harphq.com/ when making your decision. There are a lot of previews available for download, and a pretty friendly community frequenting their forums. They also have a neat deal where you can trade in d20 books for a $15 discount off of the main rules, so if you have any d20 stuff you can't seem to get rid of...

Plus, the creator of the game is a chatty bastitch who will quite willingly talk your ear off about it... hehehe!!


What it all boils down to is this: Is HARP the right game for everybody? The answer to that is no. That same answer aplies to EVERY game, including d20 games. There is a propensity for d20 gamers (especially D&D gamers) to deride or ignore all other games. This is much more prevalent among those who play D&D than any other system (perhaps because there are so many more D&D players - but it applies equally to gamers of ANY system), and I don't think that AIM-54's comments were meant as any sort of attack so much as trying to mention something that is a pretty well known fact.

Try not to read too much into what folks say

 

[Nisarg]

But the majority of d20 gamers are so bound up in the "superiority" of their comfortable system that they are unwilling to try anything else.

No, they're just unwilling to try something that has no obvious selling point besides trying to be "better" than D20 at what D20 does.

Most D20 players I know will be quite willing to play something that's DIFFERENT from D20.

The problem with people who create systems to "outdo" D20 is that they are unconsciously operating on the assumption that most people who play D20 would be willing to abandon it if something very similar yet "better" came along. Aside from the fact that what they see as "better" is usually highly subjective, there is also the problem that most gamers are not choosing D20 as "the least possible evil", they choose it because they're actually very happy with D20.

Now, offer them to play a game that has something radically different in setting/rules/etc. that isn't just trying to be a "better D&D", and most D20 gamers will be quite willing to give it a shot for the sake of variety.

Try it, you'll see.

Nisarg

 

[Nisarg]

Operative word there being "most".

BTW, glass.... the name is Tim Dugger, and you are correct, I am the guy who wrote HARP.

Tim,

I gave you my critique of HARP. Its usually good form to take it as constructive criticism, and bad form to blindly defend your game and basely reject all criticism of it.

I think I made my argument clear about the things I don't care for about HARP, and how I find it at least as complex if not more complex than D&D. I know its your creation, but when it comes down to it as an industry professional you should make an effort to maintain a professional demeanour in selling your game; not to accuse anyone who criticizes it of having no idea what they're talking about, and then reject their every argument when they give you detailed specifics proving they have indeed read the game and have legitimate issues to address about it. At the very least you could admit that I am not ignorant of HARP and probably apologize for accusing me of being so.

To do otherwise would be amateurish.

Good luck with your business endeavours. I hope you choose to take another look at my comments and consider that legitimate criticisism from (one member of) the very target audience I presume you are trying to market to.

Nisarg

 

[Rasyr]

In my mind the main reason I wouldn't bother trying HARP is that the game is 90% of time explained to me or defined as "not D&D / d20". It's rarely explained or advertised on its own merits, but as a combination of comparisons and knocks vs. D&D.

Was that from individuals? From the ICE advertising (which I really have little to do with)? From HARP players?

If it was from me, then I aplogize, as it was not intentional. However, in this thread, things are slightly different, as my posts were not an attempt to "sell you" but gauged towards trying to correct some misconceptions, and as such, comparisions were appropriate. (When I describe HARP to folks, I try to stay away from comparisions, and stick to HARP good points, especially its flexibility!).

I realise this is pretty small of me, but I do have some emotional investment in D&D.

Emotional attachments should never be scoffed at, however, it is important to be able to realize that attachment, and filter information as much as possible so that you actually get the information and are not seeing red by something that may have just been mis-phrased. Unfortunately, this is an extremely difficult skill to master (I can do sometimes, but not always), so don't feel bad, or think of yourself as "small" for doing this. It just happens to be how people are wired... hehe

ps. 3.0E referred to as Rolemaster lite? Thats funny .. and not that far-fetched (I've played Rolemaster on and off since '91, mostly off)

Personally, I would say that D&D is more of a light version of RM2 than RMFRP/RMSS (Note: I have some serious issues with the RMFRP/RMSS system in and of itself. I will be extremely glad when we can revise the blasted thing), which is not difficult to understand considering that one of the authors was an editor for RM (yes, you can blame the later Companions on him and him alone!), and at least one other involved is listed as a playtester in several of the older RM products. That is two out of three who had some connection with RM in thier pasts.

 

[Aaron2]

I'm actually suprised that, with a name like HARP, it's a fantasy game and not a multi-genre game. Especially considering ICE's long list of sci-fi games and the current trend with campaign settings mixing magic and tech.

Is there a Space HARP in the mix?


Aaron

 

[Rasyr]

Tim,

I gave you my critique of HARP. Its usually good form to take it as constructive criticism, and bad form to blindly defend your game and basely reject all criticism of it.

I think I made my argument clear about the things I don't care for about HARP, and how I find it at least as complex if not more complex than D&D. I know its your creation, but when it comes down to it as an industry professional you should make an effort to maintain a professional demeanour in selling your game; not to accuse anyone who criticizes it of having no idea what they're talking about, and then reject their every argument when they give you detailed specifics proving they have indeed read the game and have legitimate issues to address about it. At the very least you could admit that I am not ignorant of HARP and probably apologize for accusing me of being so.

To do otherwise would be amateurish.

Good luck with your business endeavours. I hope you choose to take another look at my comments and consider that legitimate criticisism from (one member of) the very target audience I presume you are trying to market to.

Constructive criticism is very easy to take, however your post did not seem to be that. It seemed to be an attack on the system, heavily colored by your predjudices (such as percentile systems should be roll-under, not roll-over).

No, you are not totally ignorant about HARP, however, having not actually played it (and I feel that HARP is one of those games that actually need to be played once or twice to fully appreciate), there are a lot of differences between it and RM that do not stand out on paper, and therefore cannot readily be seen.

If you have read any of the reviews over on rpg.net, you will see that I have actually defended reviewers who have less than favorable things to say. That when somebody asks to do a review that all I ask is for it to be fair. And for a review to be fair, the game needs to be played, as you yourself pointed out not all games can be judged just from reading them.

Are there things in HARP that can be improved? Yes, most definitely so, just as there are in ANY system. In fact, if I had it all to do over again, I would have a number of minor things that I would have done differently, and perhaps some changes on some major things as well.

My defense of HARP was not blind, however, I will argue against what I feel are misconceptions about the system.... There is a difference...

 

[AIM-54]

No, they're just unwilling to try something that has no obvious selling point besides trying to be "better" than D20 at what D20 does.

Most D20 players I know will be quite willing to play something that's DIFFERENT from D20.

The problem with people who create systems to "outdo" D20 is that they are unconsciously operating on the assumption that most people who play D20 would be willing to abandon it if something very similar yet "better" came along. Aside from the fact that what they see as "better" is usually highly subjective, there is also the problem that most gamers are not choosing D20 as "the least possible evil", they choose it because they're actually very happy with D20.

Now, offer them to play a game that has something radically different in setting/rules/etc. that isn't just trying to be a "better D&D", and most D20 gamers will be quite willing to give it a shot for the sake of variety.

Try it, you'll see.

Nisarg

I admit my comments are somewhat colored by the frustrations of my current experience, which has been 9 or 10 months of trying to get certain members of my current group (which is a great group and I enjoy playing with them very much) to try anything new (in particular Shadowrun which is my game of choice and which I have been pleased to note there are more than a few players of on these boards). Before anyone gets upset, let me note that I myself continue to enjoy D&D (though I think its strength is fantasy gaming and I have been nothing but disappointed with the mechanics of d20 Modern, but I digress) and have no problems with anyone elses enjoyment of it. I wouldn't be here otherwise. However, I have noticed a certain superiority complex among certain elements of the d20 community that seem to think it is the be-all, end-all of role-playing games and refuse to give any other systems the time of day based on that perspective which to me is simply close-minded.

It's not everyone, nor is it necessarily a majority, but it's there and it's annoying, particularly with my current frustration.

Finally, I cannot argue for HARP (or against it) as I have not played it and therefore hesitate to have an opinion, other than to say that it's unfair to judge it without having played it (which was my entire point).

However, I can say that just about any magic system has got to be better than the standard D&D one. In my opinion, of course.

Apologies for any feathers ruffled.

 

[lord_banus]

A few interresting things came out of my groups recent conversion to HARP which I would like to mention. Firstly I say that HARP is definately a game that needs to be played to be appreciated. A key example of this is the percentile dice. Early in our first game it looked like it was going to be a big issue, everyone was having problems with quickly doing the maths but we found this to just be residue from dnd. By the end of the 5 hour session it was no longer a problem and the maths was easy. Just a matter of getting your brain in gear.
The second is the flexibility of the system, as a GM its brilliant. Every aspect has been designed for extension. Professions(classes) are easy to create, even on the fly if need be, training packages, cultures, weapons, spells and in particular clerics are all suppremely easy to customise. The spell system is excellent as already mentioned.

The great thing about this flexibility is that I can re-use my DND books for inspiration as most things are fairly easy to move over at a conceptual level.

Better stop ranting now. Suffice to say, if you are a game master that likes a lot of flexibility in world building or a player that likes to build characters around a strong character concept then HARP is for you.

 

[Kaleon Moonshae]

I tend to agree that there seems to be a large group of d20 players who seem to deride everything not d20. This is sad to me, since I think we lost something when we shifted to the one dominant game system format. There are a lot of small game systems out there that are very good, but try getting most gamers to give them a try and it is hard. D20 is getting as bad as WoD was for so long. I miss those days of dms getting together and talking bout just how many systems they know. My new system is going to be ogl because frankly I can't afford to commit creative suicide by venturing completely away from d20. I have been searching for people locally willing to even try and OGL game and have met looks of derision. Just found the first guy who is willing to try something that isn't cookie cutter d20. Don't get me wrong, I like d20 and it is true it is one of the easiest and cross genre converting systems out there... but that can also be a draw back. D20 does have it's bad points, the major one being magic. I picked up HARP purely because Tim made sure not to have drm in it. I knew nothing about it and had no hopes of ever playing it but wanted to support his decision not to put drm in it. I read through it and I like it. I still have no hopes of getting someone to play it (much like shadowrun and nephilim) but I like it. I don't think, on the whole, it is any more *or* less complicated than dnd, it's just different. I will, however, say that it magic rules are *far* more simple than dnd. I wouldn't mind playing a mage in his system, whereas in dnd you have to force me to play anyone who uses magic or psionics.