Has anyone done the math on 2H weapon vs unarmed TWF?

[Quartz]

Take a combat character with BAB +20 and EAB +1.

On the one hand we have a character using a 2-handed weapon (4 attacks at +21/+16/+11/+6). On the other, we have a brawler with Improved Unarmed Combat and Perfect TWF (so 8 attacks at +19/+19/+14/+14/etc).

Has anyone done the maths on which is better? Assume all relevant feats. Note that Power Attack can be used with Improved Unarmed Combat. How does this compare with a 21st level monk?

 

[Winding Road]

My friend and I got in a discussion over this the other day. I was arguing that the two-handed guy was better, while he was defending the TWF build. We both statted up 20th level builds and crunched the numbers.

Ultimately, it comes down to the AC of the monsters you're fighting. On high AC critters, the TWF guy can barely touch him, and so his extra hits are useless. On lower AC creatures, his extra hits catch up in damage to the two-hander's bigger blows, especially if he's got sneak attack or the like. Most creatures you're fighting at that level come out on the high AC end of the scale, so I'd say the two-hander is the stronger build.

 

[blargney the second]

2H is much much better against DR.

 

[udalrich]

It depends on the opponent and how much extra damage you get. Assuming a greatsword against two short swords, both do 2d6 + 1.5 str damage. The two-hander can power attack for 2 "for free", which gets him an extra 4 damage and the same to-hit.

If the foe has effective DR, it's essentially doubled against the TWF since it's applied twice as often.

If all weapons have 3 or 4 types of bonus damage dice, that favors the TWF, since the bonus damage count twice. But the TWF has to spend twice as much to get that, which the two-hander can spend on other things to make him more effective.

I have a 10th level gestalt two weapon fighter who has been averaging about 130 damage per full attack. It's basically a scout/dervish, so he his average attack does 1d6 + 3d6 (skirmish) + 2 (dervish) + 2-5 (strength) + 3 (magic) damage. If he hits 4 times, thats 16d6 + 34 damage. If you just convert that build to a two-hander, the damage would be 2d6 + 3d6 + 2 + 7 + 3, so two hits would do 10d6 + 24 damage. That's about +30 damage, so he'll break even at DR 15.

Add a bard and/or cleric that boost damage rolls and it gets even better. OTOH, if the bard/cleric is boosting the two-hander's to hit, then he can trade that for damage at 2/1 with power attack. The TWF likely can't power attack since light weapons work best for TWF.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

It's hard to run the numbers on this without known what other weapon your brawler is using, since you can't TWF Unarmed Strike with itself (just like you can't TWF with the same shortsword in either hands).

 

[blargney the second]

Wow, I'd totally let that work, Patryn. They're spending two feats on it, and it's likely not going to be the most overpowered combo ever...

 

[Jack Simth]

You can crunch the numbers for any specific case, and get either result as better, even accounting for the Two Weapon Fighting style (TWF) having to split the "weapon budget" compared to the Two Handed Fighting style (2HF). The specific types of circumstances favor one over the other:

In general:
Target has applicable DR: Favors 2HF (as it applies twice for the TWF)
Target has no applicable DR: Favors TWF
Target has high AC (relative to attacker's attack bonus): Favors 2HF
Target is only hit on a natural 20 anyway: Favors TWF (more chances to hit)
Target has low AC (relative to attacker's attack bonus): Favors TWF
Attacker has extra damage that applies on a per-hit basis (sneak attack, favored enemy, and so on): Favors TWF
Can't Full Attack (because you're Charging, taking an AoO, or so on): Favors 2HF
Lots of little enemies: 2HF (with Great Cleave)
Lots of little enemies: TWF (without Great Cleave)
Attacker has non-stacking extra attacks (e.g., Haste only grants you one extra attack): Favors 2HF.
Lots of feats available: Favors TWF
Few feats available: Favors 2HF

Then, of course, there's the powergamer that does both at the same time (two-handed weapon as a primary weapon and Armor Spikes as light off-hand weapon).

Really, though, don't bother comparing them at 20+. At that level, it doesn't usually matter, what with the Full Caster standing right there laughing at both of them. You'll want to make the comparison at 5th, 10th, and sometimes 15th, where it's more relavant.

 

[Quartz]

It's hard to run the numbers on this without known what other weapon your brawler is using, since you can't TWF Unarmed Strike with itself (just like you can't TWF with the same shortsword in either hands).

Hah, there was me thinking adventurers generally had two fists. (And my sincere apologies to any reader who is actually missing a hand.) I don't see why a character shouldn't be allowed two attacks - you can make a secondary unarmed attack if you have a weapon in one hand, so why not allow two unarmed attaks if you've taken the TWF feat?

 

[Chocobot]

I think the no TWF unarmed thing is a rule specifically in the monk class, and not applicable in general.

 

[Nail]

Hah, there was me thinking adventurers generally had two fists. (And my sincere apologies to any reader who is actually missing a hand.) I don't see why a character shouldn't be allowed two attacks - you can make a secondary unarmed attack if you have a weapon in one hand, so why not allow two unarmed attaks if you've taken the TWF feat?

How many fists you have has nothing to do with it, Quartz.

The game system doesn't give you a certain number of unarmed attacks based on how many hands you have. Talk to the thri-kreen monk, frex.