Has anyone managed to make the monk less oriental?

[tarchon]

I've found that a bit of renaming the abilities and possible altering some skills does the trick.

Yep - the monk is about as oriental as chop suey. A little name-changing is all it takes.

 

[shilsen]

Yep - the monk is about as oriental as chop suey. A little name-changing is all it takes.

I agree. The monk is a great example of how much semantics affects people's perceptions in D&D. Exactly the same abilities with different names and flavor would create a very different class. I remember a few months ago someone posted an example of a Greek monk, where the class' abilities were renamed as boons granted by classical Greek deities.

 

[Arkhandus]

Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed/Evolved has the Unfettered 20-level class which works decently for an unarmed fighter or martial artist I suppose, though primarily intended as a swashbuckler sort.

Random though, Athar in Planescape would probably be great monks. {:^D

 

[Telas]

I run a Greyhawk campaign, and I'm toying with making Monks a kind of Stoic philosophy brought to life. And introducing a Martial Artist class for those who don't want the RP restrictions. The downside (for the player) is that the Stoic code isn't necessarily tied to longevity in a gaming environment.

The Scarlet Brotherhood, on the other hand, may be alchemically "improved", since they currently reside in the jungle....

Telas

 

[Testament]

Since nobody has mentioned it yet, I think that Paradigm Concepts does a fantastic job of de-orientalizing the monk class in their Player's Guide to Arcanis. If you basically like the PHB monk as a class but don't like the flavor, they've got a horde of different orders from the Order of the Bronze Sepulchre--a group of Myrantians who learned to subdue their undead ancestors when they got out of line and later came to use their abilities against their Coryani conquerers to the elemental paths followed by Elori which focus on awakening their elemental ancestry and attuning their bodies to the element of their birth. And then there are the Ssethren (ECL+0 lizardfolk) monks who don't feel the least bit oriental. Some orders like the Order of the Blade--monks who focus on the worship of Hurrian and perfecting the use of his chosen weapon--have a bit of a asian, Shaolin monastery feel to them, but even they fit into the world quite well.

If you're interested in taking the oriental feel out of the monk class but keeping the basic ability progression, I'd recommend checking it out.

I especially recommend that group psychotic Nier worshippers, who follow such a strict interpretation of the Nierite dogma of strength and endurance that they eschew all weapons and armour (IIRC, they get NO proficiencies). Voila, Monks. Follow through by renaming all their flowery ability names to relate to Nier and fire, like one player I know, and it's finished.

And I think the asiatic feel to the Hurrianic monks comes in part from the illustration. That guy even looks asiatic.

 

[3catcircus]

I'd just as soon dump the core PHB monk and go with the one(s) in OA and the Rokugan d20 book.

If you really want a western-style "monk," i.e. - a Friar Tuck, consider multi-classing as a healer and rogue and/or taking some Favored Soul levels. If all you want is a western-style bare-handed fighter, go straight fighter and only take feats that affect your ability to fight bare-handed.

 

[fusangite]

I agree. The monk is a great example of how much semantics affects people's perceptions in D&D. Exactly the same abilities with different names and flavor would create a very different class. I remember a few months ago someone posted an example of a Greek monk, where the class' abilities were renamed as boons granted by classical Greek deities.

While it's refreshing to see that there isn't much readership overlap between the two monk threads, to be fair to myself and others on the other monk thread, the progression of the monk and his abilities are not just semantics. They are part of the rules themselves. One doesn't find any kind of hero getting progressively lighter as he becomes more expert in the West but the monk sure does -- and that doesn't come from "semantics"; it comes from the rules.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

And, so, like some sort of apocalyptic clockwork machine, we begin the debate. I'll keep things short since this has all been done before.

I assume, Fusangite, that you're using the phrase 'progressively lighter' to refer to the general genre trope of leaping about?

If so then I might take issue with your general complaint. Certainly, I understand from prior threads that you use a very narrow cannon in terms of determining what you think is and is not acceptable for the game. And also I would like to state that in saying so I do not mean to accuse you of calling wrongbadfun all the time so much as that you bring this point up in reference to any of a number of arguments. And it's a point we disagree on.

But in terms of the general body of Western fantasy literature there are any number of larger characters who leap about, from Cuchalain to the issue of Seven League Boots and the Jack archetype and all of them possess it as a fairly advanced ability. Now it may very well be that your conception of the leaping about technique is that it is generally reserved for fairly inhuman characters or their equipment, but I think I can accept it for monks on both counts. Monks seem to be the most 'inhuman' of the classes and leaping about would thus be concievably appropriate. In fact there's more than a little to be said about the idea of the monk becoming a very demi-human appropriate class in any strictly western setting. The sort of thing to represent weird faerie capabilities.

This is not to dispute that the Monk is very 'oriental' in flavor as is or that I imagine I and any number of people would be happier with it if it were more modular. Say something along the lines of Monte Cook's Champion class where you pick from a host of mechanically dissimilar sub classes that would give new class abilities to a more general unarmed, unarmored, mobile, and skilled fighter structure.

 

[fusangite]

And, so, like some sort of apocalyptic clockwork machine, we begin the debate. I'll keep things short since this has all been done before.

And in fact is ongoing just one thread away if you want to wade in. No point in further hijacking this thread.

I assume, Fusangite, that you're using the phrase 'progressively lighter' to refer to the general genre trope of leaping about?

No. I mean getting lighter and more insubstantila, as depicted in Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon; it is represented in the game by the increases in movement rate, Abundant Step and the Slow Fall. There is this idea of becoming lighter than dew -- that's what I'm talking about.

But in terms of the general body of Western fantasy literature there are any number of larger characters who leap about, from Cuchalain ... This is not to dispute that the Monk is very 'oriental' in flavor as is or that I imagine I and any number of people would be happier with it if it were more modular. Say something along the lines of Monte Cook's Champion class where you pick from a host of mechanically dissimilar sub classes that would give new class abilities to a more general unarmed, unarmored, mobile, and skilled fighter structure.

I guess my point here is this: it is better to make a class that actually fits the Western thing you're trying to represent than it is to stuff the poor monk into that role.

 

[Mallus]

In a barely-related aside...

I have managed to make rabbis less Jewish (by making them more Aztec). And I've made Vikings less-inclined to wear hats w/horns.

(On-topic: count me among the people who simply don't have the time to make the mechanics sync perfectly up with the setting flavor. I'm all for slapping new and clever name onto the abilities found in the published materials, and thereby repurposing classes like the monk into something more useful to me. Not a position I initially took, but one I've certainly come round to.)