Has anyone managed to make the monk less oriental?

[ecliptic]

Medieval European martial arts information can be found here:
http://www.practical-martial-arts.co.uk/practical_martial_arts/hh_landsnecht.html

Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed/Evolved has the Unfettered 20-level class which works decently for an unarmed fighter or martial artist I suppose, though primarily intended as a swashbuckler sort.
{:^D

Which is what swashbuckling actually was. What it is known as today through popular movies isn't what it was back in the day. Matter of fact The Musketeer got it right on but he was supposedly trained by some Chinese master.

 

[Driddle]

... The progression of the monk and his abilities are not just semantics. They are part of the rules themselves. One doesn't find any kind of hero getting progressively lighter as he becomes more expert in the West but the monk sure does -- and that doesn't come from "semantics"; it comes from the rules.

Perhaps you're missing the point here, then. Because no one is trying to argue whether this particular class -- let's call it a "Monk," for shorthand, or "Class-X" -- does or does not attain certain funky abilities, or whether those funky abilities are or are not "Western" themselves. ... Class-X gets funky abilities. That's a given. Yeah, it's in the rules.

The point we're playing with is how to rename and re-envision those funky abilities so they don't feel so much like they came from a cliche "Eastern" genre.

The second aspect of your argument seems to be this: Can we point to any archetypical "Western" character that moves really fast, for example, or (as you noted) gets lighter than air, or does massive amounts of damage with his bare fisties? ... Mmmmm, probably not. But so what? There are a whole frippin lot of character classes in this game system that have had all sorts of pseudo-magical justifications attached for the funky abilities they gain. This Class-X/Monk class can easily be treated the same.

I'm going to propose again (because no one discussed it before, woe is me) the concept of "Living Spell" or "Arcane Internalist," a character (class) that internalizes magic to the point that each movement he makes is powered by mana itself. Instead of "ki," he focuses mana into his massive unarmed blows, for example. ... Ends up being the same character, game mechanics-wise, as a "Monk," but with all different trappings and justifications.

 

[ThoughtfulOwl]

While it's refreshing to see that there isn't much readership overlap between the two monk threads, to be fair to myself and others on the other monk thread, the progression of the monk and his abilities are not just semantics. They are part of the rules themselves. One doesn't find any kind of hero getting progressively lighter as he becomes more expert in the West but the monk sure does -- and that doesn't come from "semantics"; it comes from the rules.

You are right, there is no western heroic archetype for a warrior who uses extreme training to get super duper acrobatics, no need for armor and weapons and mystical abilities; it doesn't automatically apply to the reverse, however: magicians or supernatural creatures who do the things above because they got mystical abilities in the first place - i.e.: mystic powers are the cause, not the consequence - fit rather well. This is the angle taken bot by me and Turanil in our examples on page one.

One more note: I disagree with your 'lighter' idea; fast movement, slow fall and abundant step don't automatically imply any degree of lightness or insubstantiality, especially when you have a whole crowd of justifications with "I'm magic mumbo-jumbo, real-world physics need not apply" written all over their t-shirts.

 

[Gentlegamer]

I think that trying to make the monk occidental is about as productive as trying to make the barbarian oriental.

There were no barbarians in the Orient? Wouldn't Monguls fit the bill nicely?

 

[tarchon]

While it's refreshing to see that there isn't much readership overlap between the two monk threads, to be fair to myself and others on the other monk thread, the progression of the monk and his abilities are not just semantics. They are part of the rules themselves. One doesn't find any kind of hero getting progressively lighter as he becomes more expert in the West but the monk sure does -- and that doesn't come from "semantics"; it comes from the rules.

Nanananananana... BATMAN!
Monks don't actually get lighter though, unless 3.5 made some big flavor text changes that aren't in the SRD. Wire-fu is as much a modern invention as Batman, Superman, and the Flash. Pre-modern East Asian stories depict some characters with the ability to move fast and sort of fly, but it's not an exclusively Asian thing. The monk is only "oriental" if you want "oriental" to mean "like martial-arts movies of the past 40 years" and most of the tropes are easily found in occidental movies as well. The particular packaging is the only thing especially exclusive to the genre, but it's not much of a stretch to make the whole idea of physical discipline into a "Batman option" character class for any context.

 

[Klaus]

This topic seems to come up time and again, so pardon if I repeat myself...

Here's the non-Oriental monk from Fiery Dragon's World of Karathis, the Monastic Dragons. Much like Earth's kung fu masters developed unarmed techniques by observing the world's animals, Karathis' unarmed masters observed the dragons. Included are several non-eastern substitutes for the monk weapons: http://www.fierydragon.com/DB/DB_OCT27_2004.htm

In an older thread on the subject, titled "Do we really need monks?", I renamed all the monk's abilities and turned it into the Pankrationist. I'm reposting it below:

Pankrationist

Weapon Proficiency: A weapon by any other name... Just change the name and appearance of the monk weapons, and keep them stats. Staff can remain, kama can become griffon's claw, nunchaku can become Hera's Serpents (remember Hera sent two serpents to kill baby Herakles in his cradle), etc...
Armour Class Bonus: Hunter's Awareness (nod to Atalanta)
Flurry of Blows: Hecatoncheire's Hundred Blows.
Unarmed Strike: Remains the same, lots of Greek heroes killed with their bare hands.
Evasion: This can remain the same, as it's easy to visualize light-armored greek warriors dodging blows (pankrationists have to rely on their fleet feet).
Fast Movement: Like Atalanta the Huntress, pankrationists can outrun even the fastest horses in time.
Still Mind: Faith in Self. Pankration is Total Power, so no mind can be weak, specially if one must endure the warrior-training.
Ki Strike: Once again, it's Total Power. This gets renamed Pankration Strike.
Slow Fall: Greece is as mountainous as it gets. It's easy to say that Pankrationists must learn the way of the mountain goat and be as surefooted as the god Pan.
Purity of Body: This is self-explanatory. In a world where magic exists, seeking the perfectness of the human body can have Purity as a side effect.
Wholeness of Body: Same as Purity.
Diamond Body: Same as Purity.
Abundant Step: Hermes' Blessing. For a short moment, the pankrationist reaches the instant travel of Hermes, god of messengers.
Diamond Soul: Same as Purity.
Quivering Palm: Touch of Clothos. The pankrationist begins to understand the workings of Fate, and can work with the twines of life to kill someone from afar.
Timeless Body: Same as Purity. Several Greek heroes were shown to be formidable even in their old age.
Tongue of Sun and Moon: Tongue of the Children of Gaea. All beings are descended from Gaea, and the pankrationist can link to this primal connection.
Empty Body: Olympian Step. So perfect is the pankrationist's body that it begins to border the divine, including stepping into the realm of the gods.
Perfect Self: Olympian Self. The pankrationist finally reaches Total Power, and his mortal form becomes so perfect that it transcends humanity and becomes divine.

 

[Telas]

Wow, this is like a thread on Fark.com....

Recap:

One group claims that since it's in the rules, it's law: Monks do weird stuff. This says nothing about all the House Rule documents out there. :\

One group claims that the Monk is derived entirely from Asian mythology, and doesn't fit most Western European-flavored campaigns. Which conveniently forgets the Scarlet Brotherhood in Greyhawk, one of the oldest campaign settings out there. :\

The Asian flavor can be overcome by renaming the skills/feats with something more in tune to the campaign setting. However, this isn't acceptable to some, who think the Monk is not a traditional fantasy archetype. :\

Of course, what you do in your campaign shouldn't matter one whit to what someone else does. So why are we so concerned with others' interpretations of the Monk?


And then there's me, with my "low-magic" Greyhawk campaign. My problem with Monks is that they're damned powerful in a low-magic setting. Best saves in the game, the first to receive multiple attacks, the best movement in the game (a 6th level Monk can run a mile in just over 2.5 minutes), and immunities and feats out the wazoo.

When WotC went a-nerfing, someone looked at the Monk and said, "These guys are safe - no weapons or armor." Big mistake, IMHO.

For what it's worth, my solution is to bind the Monk with a Code of Honor that addresses specific situations, such as prisoners, noncombatants, poisons, etc. Paladins get this, too. This keeps the munchkining down to an acceptable level, and puts a sign up saying "You must be this much ---- of a roleplayer to play a Monk."

Telas

 

[fusangite]

Guys,

I've just had this argument with one group of people on another thread. If you want to have the argument, post to that thread. I'm not going to re-post 3 pages worth of arguments I made two days ago to this one.

Gentlegamer, re: Barbarians. The class modeled in the PHB is a Norse berserker warrior. If one wanted to model a mongol, there would probably be special riding abilities in the character progression and no rage ability. Just as the monk class models a subset of monks (ie. a martial Asian subset), the barbarian class models a subset of barbarians (ie. a medieval/pre-medieval Norse subset).

 

[ThoughtfulOwl]

I've just had this argument with one group of people on another thread. If you want to have the argument, post to that thread.

Please, can you post a link?
Thanks.

 

[SWBaxter]

I like the idea of an unarmed fighter, i like the idea of someone being able to topple giant beasts with fists and feet alone.

My pet peeve is all of the KI abilitys and also the Oriental feel to it. I would like an unarmed fighter that meshes better with fantasy.

Arcana Unearthed (or nowadays Arcana Evolved, I guess) has the Oathsworn, which doesn't have the same oriental "feel" as the monk but is otherwise similar in terms of role and abilities. A bit of renaming and reimagining can go a long way.

In one homebrew, I explained monks as being advocates of Greek-style philosophical schools with knowledge of Pankration and the workings of the universe to explain their abilities. I had trouble finding a decent class name, I ended up just calling them "Philosophers" but that didn't do a good job of conveying the class. Otherwise, it seemed to work well.