Bill Zebub
“It’s probably Matt Mercer’s fault.”
It probably should be moot.
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D&D General Has the meaning of "roleplaying" changed since 1e?
- Thread starter Bill Zebub
- Start date
- Status
It probably should be moot.
Did you write extensive (i.e. more than one paragraph) back stories for your characters? Is the type of roleplaying that happens in a game like critical role similar to how you played AD&D, or has something shifted?
I think the idea of extensive backstories and narrative arcs was already there in post-dragonlance dnd, but became accentuated by the rhetoric (if not the mechanics) of world of darkness games, that insisted you take the role playing element more seriously. Even Planescape was a response to this, in that the core setting emphasizes that players should thinking in terms of their character's beliefs and not just their desire for treasure or combat or whatever
aco175
Legend
Does 4e and 5e expand on the general class of fighter, thief, mage, cleric from the 1e/2e days? 4e had terms like striker, controller, and brute and 5e expands on backgrounds so your Pc can be more a folk hero over a rogue or mage. I'm not sure how these terms and expansion of background adds to roleplay.
I'm also not sure how online video games change the culture and terms that affect how people play RPGs.
I'm also not sure how online video games change the culture and terms that affect how people play RPGs.
Lanefan
Victoria Rules
Hmmm.
Here's a hypothesis for others to blow out of the water if they like:
In the 5e era, a rather large portion of the player base is being drawn in via Critical Role and other game streams, and if those shows do one thing right it's roleplaying. If you don't have an idea on what roleplaying's all about after watching some of those then, frankly, there's little hope for you.
However, once those new players become engaged with the actual game - playing it, as opposed to watching others play it - a subset of those players will become dissatisfied with the "crunch" level of the game, and look for more. Where will they look? Online. Where will they find what they're looking for? In many cases, web forums like this one. From there, it feeds on itself.
End result: over time the population of forum* users/readers skews more and more sharply toward the optimizer/powergamer group, in comparison to the overall player base.
* - forums in total, not just this one.
Lanefan
Victoria Rules
Exactly this; and this is my own background as well.
As long as everything stays in character, all is good.
Completely agree.
Bill Zebub
“It’s probably Matt Mercer’s fault.”
So I should watch that show to learn the correct way of roleplaying?
Lanefan
Victoria Rules
Nope, sorry, your ship - like mine - has long since sailed.
I'm referring to brand new players, previously unfamiliar with RPGs, who come into the game via watching CR and its ilk. CR etc. broadly teaches them how to roleplay but doesn't teach them much about powergaming or optimization; they have to come to that on their own later.
Warpiglet-7
Cry havoc! And let slip the pigs of war!
I don’t know if it has changed or just the emphasis. As early as grade school I was drawing my character and made speeches and threats to evil doers as my character. I was playing in the 80s.
that said we had more emphasis on survival, more than people do in story games.
we were (and are) way into combat but always have personality, backstory and some sort of character portrait even if borrowed.
man we have been doing that since AD&D 1e. The level of sophistication has changed of course from grade school to adulthood, of course but it’s always been there and assumed to be part of the game by my still existent group of friends…
that said we had more emphasis on survival, more than people do in story games.
we were (and are) way into combat but always have personality, backstory and some sort of character portrait even if borrowed.
man we have been doing that since AD&D 1e. The level of sophistication has changed of course from grade school to adulthood, of course but it’s always been there and assumed to be part of the game by my still existent group of friends…
overgeeked
B/X Known World
If it hasn't already been said, here's what's in the Moldvay Basic Set.
“The D&D game has neither losers nor winners, it has only gamers who relish exercising their imagination. The players and the DM share in creating adventures in fantastic lands where heroes abound and magic really works. In a sense, the D&D game has no rules, only rule suggestions. No rule is inviolate, particularly if a new or altered rule will encourage creativity and imagination. The important thing is to enjoy the adventure.”
Throwing the above in because it's something I think we've lost over the years.
Here's the opening of Moldvay Basic:
“What The D&D® Game Is All About
DUNGEONS & DRAGONS® Fantasy Adventure Game ("D&D® Game" for short) is a role playing adventure game for persons 10 years and older. In the D&D rules, individuals play the role of characters in a fantasy world where magic is real and heroes venture out on dangerous quests in search of fame and fortune. Characters gain experience by overcoming perils and recovering treasures. As characters gain experience, they grow in power and ability.
At least two persons are needed to play this game, though the game is most enjoyable when played by a group of four to eight people. This game, unlike others, does not use a playing board or actual playing pieces. All that is needed to play are these rules, the dice included in this set, pencil and paper, graph paper, and imagination. The game may be more exciting if miniature lead figures of the characters and monsters are used, but the game can be played without such aids.”
And this from the Mentzer Red Box:
“Players are not characters!
It is important to remember that the player and the character are two different persons. The more the two are kept apart, the better your games can be.
The most obvious example of this is the dice rolls you make. All dice rolls are called "game mechanics," as are other details such as Armor Class, Hit Points, and so forth. These things would not be part of a character's knowledge. The characters would talk about armor, health, and attacks, but never about Ability Scores, Hit Rolls, or other parts of the game. Everyone can usually tell whether the players are in the role of the characters or being themselves, handling game mechanics.
If there is any doubt, the player should clarify.
Suppose that a player has a Chaotic character (unusual, but not impossible). The character will act wildly at times, but the player should remain calm while dealing with the others. If the player acts Chaotic, the game will become very confusing and less fun.
There are many ways that this can affect the game, especially when a player knows something that the character doesn't. For instance, if a character starts to fight a new, unknown monster, and the DM says "It hit you; save vs. Poison, please!" then all the players know that the monster is poisonous. But the better players will ignore that information. Their characters don't know about the poison, and shouldn't use that "player information." The characters will probably find out after the battle, when they talk to their wounded friend and discover that the wound "stung, like poison," or is discolored. (All of such descriptions are left to the DM's imagination.)
A question like "What time is it?" could be answered two different ways: in "real time," which any player can find by looking at a clock, and "game time," of which the DM should be aware, but of which the characters might only have a general idea. The DM could reply, "Real time, it's 7:30. Game time, it's past noon, but you are not sure exactly."
When the players remember the difference between themselves and their characters, everyone can have more fun in Role Playing. If a character has low Intelligence and Wisdom scores, for example, and then does something stupid, the player can honestly say "I was playing my character," and others should remember not to get mad at the player. Their characters may indeed get mad at the stupid character, but it is very important to remember that the player is a different person.
This should not be used as an excuse for bad or selfish play. The DM should watch all the role playing closely to help everyone have the most fun. Since the object of the game is to have fun by playing roles, stupid or weak characters can be as much fun as smart, powerful ones — if the roles are played well.
The Dungeon Master may say, at any time in the game, "You don't know that!" or "You wouldn't think of that." Good players will learn to avoid this type of problem by keeping the character knowledge and player knowledge separate.”
“The D&D game has neither losers nor winners, it has only gamers who relish exercising their imagination. The players and the DM share in creating adventures in fantastic lands where heroes abound and magic really works. In a sense, the D&D game has no rules, only rule suggestions. No rule is inviolate, particularly if a new or altered rule will encourage creativity and imagination. The important thing is to enjoy the adventure.”
Throwing the above in because it's something I think we've lost over the years.
Here's the opening of Moldvay Basic:
“What The D&D® Game Is All About
DUNGEONS & DRAGONS® Fantasy Adventure Game ("D&D® Game" for short) is a role playing adventure game for persons 10 years and older. In the D&D rules, individuals play the role of characters in a fantasy world where magic is real and heroes venture out on dangerous quests in search of fame and fortune. Characters gain experience by overcoming perils and recovering treasures. As characters gain experience, they grow in power and ability.
At least two persons are needed to play this game, though the game is most enjoyable when played by a group of four to eight people. This game, unlike others, does not use a playing board or actual playing pieces. All that is needed to play are these rules, the dice included in this set, pencil and paper, graph paper, and imagination. The game may be more exciting if miniature lead figures of the characters and monsters are used, but the game can be played without such aids.”
And this from the Mentzer Red Box:
“Players are not characters!
It is important to remember that the player and the character are two different persons. The more the two are kept apart, the better your games can be.
The most obvious example of this is the dice rolls you make. All dice rolls are called "game mechanics," as are other details such as Armor Class, Hit Points, and so forth. These things would not be part of a character's knowledge. The characters would talk about armor, health, and attacks, but never about Ability Scores, Hit Rolls, or other parts of the game. Everyone can usually tell whether the players are in the role of the characters or being themselves, handling game mechanics.
If there is any doubt, the player should clarify.
Suppose that a player has a Chaotic character (unusual, but not impossible). The character will act wildly at times, but the player should remain calm while dealing with the others. If the player acts Chaotic, the game will become very confusing and less fun.
There are many ways that this can affect the game, especially when a player knows something that the character doesn't. For instance, if a character starts to fight a new, unknown monster, and the DM says "It hit you; save vs. Poison, please!" then all the players know that the monster is poisonous. But the better players will ignore that information. Their characters don't know about the poison, and shouldn't use that "player information." The characters will probably find out after the battle, when they talk to their wounded friend and discover that the wound "stung, like poison," or is discolored. (All of such descriptions are left to the DM's imagination.)
A question like "What time is it?" could be answered two different ways: in "real time," which any player can find by looking at a clock, and "game time," of which the DM should be aware, but of which the characters might only have a general idea. The DM could reply, "Real time, it's 7:30. Game time, it's past noon, but you are not sure exactly."
When the players remember the difference between themselves and their characters, everyone can have more fun in Role Playing. If a character has low Intelligence and Wisdom scores, for example, and then does something stupid, the player can honestly say "I was playing my character," and others should remember not to get mad at the player. Their characters may indeed get mad at the stupid character, but it is very important to remember that the player is a different person.
This should not be used as an excuse for bad or selfish play. The DM should watch all the role playing closely to help everyone have the most fun. Since the object of the game is to have fun by playing roles, stupid or weak characters can be as much fun as smart, powerful ones — if the roles are played well.
The Dungeon Master may say, at any time in the game, "You don't know that!" or "You wouldn't think of that." Good players will learn to avoid this type of problem by keeping the character knowledge and player knowledge separate.”
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