D&D General Has the meaning of "roleplaying" changed since 1e?

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Deadstop

Explorer
I am presently reading The Elusive Shift by gaming historian Jon Peterson, author of Playing at the World, which explores exactly this question: what did the early players of D&D and related games, according to their own writings in fanzines and such, consider ”role-playing” to mean, and when was the transition point from “a funny kind of war game” to a new genre of recreation? The quoted fanzine discussions are not unlike those we still have now online. There was a lot of back-and-forth about playing to your ability scores and alignment even when that was suboptimal, vs. playing yourself doing dungeon problem-solving.

Further, Peterson finds antecedents of D&D’s style in wargames (including Mike Carr’s Fight in the Skies, later published by TSR as Dawn Patrol) that encouraged players to increase their engagement by making up personalities for pilots and even individual miniature soldiers, and having them react according to those personalities rather than just according to optimal tactics from the player’s POV.
 

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My experience, starting in 1982 in the UK, was the same as @GuyBoy's and @Lyxen's. We always roleplayed, in the sense of developing and portraying a distinct character for our PCs. I wonder if there was a difference in rpg culture between Europe and the US in this respect.

In fact I have the distinction of being criticised for my bad roleplaying by the DM in my very first session! I was playing a character with Chaotic alignment and hadn't done anything evil. My excuse was to say that the other two PCs would've killed me if I'd done anything.
I kind of suspect there wasn't a US vs Europe thing, but rather localized cultures of gaming within the US, some of which were less RP-oriented. Reason I think this is my older cousin was from Canada (and not Quebec), and obviously that's not quite the US, but I would guess the gaming culture would be similar to the US (outside Quebec at least), and she must have started playing RPGs around the same time as you (from what she said).
Further, Peterson finds antecedents of D&D’s style in wargames (including Mike Carr’s Fight in the Skies, later published by TSR as Dawn Patrol) that encouraged players to increase their engagement by making up personalities for pilots and even individual miniature soldiers, and having them react according to those personalities rather than just according to optimal tactics from the player’s POV.
Yeah it's hard to imagine that people haven't been doing this as long as there have been wargames which involved individual, named characters. I would strongly suspect it's gone on as long as such, at the least.

I think the big step is when you finally make a sub-optimal decision "because it's what the character would do" (in a genuine way, not a transparent-excuse-for-bad-behaviour), even though tactically it might be deleterious.
 

Mannahnin

Scion of Murgen (He/Him)
I am presently reading The Elusive Shift by gaming historian Jon Peterson, author of Playing at the World, which explores exactly this question: what did the early players of D&D and related games, according to their own writings in fanzines and such, consider ”role-playing” to mean, and when was the transition point from “a funny kind of war game” to a new genre of recreation? The quoted fanzine discussions are not unlike those we still have now online. There was a lot of back-and-forth about playing to your ability scores and alignment even when that was suboptimal, vs. playing yourself doing dungeon problem-solving.

Further, Peterson finds antecedents of D&D’s style in wargames (including Mike Carr’s Fight in the Skies, later published by TSR as Dawn Patrol) that encouraged players to increase their engagement by making up personalities for pilots and even individual miniature soldiers, and having them react according to those personalities rather than just according to optimal tactics from the player’s POV.
This is much where I was going to go.

Playing at the World covers this a bit, but my understanding is that the Elusive Shift digs more into the conversation and the discussion between the major groups of early roleplayers, coming primarily from the sci-fi fandom and wargaming traditions, to define what roleplaying is.

Essentially it comes down to playing a role, but you can do that without acting.

I think in the 70s the approaches were more localized and groups varied more. The distinction between groups which mostly employed what some people call "pawn stance", where your character is essentially a game piece whose personality, if any, is minimal, vs. "actor stance", where you do your best to embody a distinct character with personality clearly separate from your own, was more clear. AD&D and those early modules like Keep on the Borderlands and The Village of Hommlet (both published in 1979, like the 1E DMG) started to cater more to this actor tendency and the idea of embodying a specific character as a more complete or advanced form of play, whereas OD&D had been quite vague about it, and the Basic sets which followed, as we saw with that paragraph equating role with class, didn't talk as much about embodying someone like Falstaff the Fighter.

Once people started participating in larger conversations about gaming, whether in AP fanzines, the letters pages of Dragon or other magazines, at conventions, or later, on the internet, we got to see more debates about what roleplaying was or should be.

As I recall it was around 1983 that Sandy Peterson and others came up with the humorous four types of roleplayers- the Real Men, Real Roleplayers, Munchkins and Loonies, lampooning major player tendencies, but also illustrating how some players were already deeply into getting their PCs into "love affairs and death feuds", so clearly this was a strong and well known contingent by then (the below-linked doc was compiled in the 90s, though, after some years of discussion and expansion, but I believe sizable chunks of it date back to the early 80s):


I think by the time we get into the 80s, though, the idea of embodying a character and acting in that role, optionally with funny voices and accents and so forth, was very well and widely known and largely held up as the model form. In addition to Gary's words quoted above, you get into what some folks call the Hickman revolution when TSR started to lean more into longer narratives in games, and then the explosion of D&D novels starting with the first Dragonlance book in 1984. A new player reading Dragons of Autumn Twilight, or The Crystal Shard a few years later, would likely see emulating these heroes and their in-character voices and dialogue as goals and forms to emulate. Although if they had a regular play group, that culture would be the primary influence.
 
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Oofta

Legend
I've been playing D&D pretty much since it's release and one of the few things that have survived from those long-ago days is some of my old character sheets from the 70s with my hand-drawn pictures in the box set aside for it. I ran into them a couple of years ago when moving and yep, there was my somewhat grumpy and sarcastic dwarf, my atheist wizard, the image of a gauntleted fist holding a sword smashing ... something and my cleric raising a glass asking for another ale (admittedly traced from some image).

I wrote stories about these PCs, wondered what it would be like to live in their world, pretended they were part of some bigger story. Our games had less involved RP as some games since, more than some others. I'm sure other groups were different, but we were just a bunch of kids who had grown up on Tolkien, Lieber and a half-dozen other authors who pretended to be characters in some epic tale. Even if our stories revolved around kicking down the door to some dungeon and seeing how many orcs we could take out, it was Tempus Strong-Arm the brash and brave that did the ass-kicking, not PC #4.

While 5E pretty much gets out of the way when it comes to RP, I think having minimal rules around how to express your character and what they could do was part of what encouraged us to invest in who our PCs were, not what they were. I'm sure other groups were different, just like today.

So, no, I don't think the meaning of roleplaying has really changed much. My personal playstyle has evolved, some editions felt more mechanical than the old editions (or 5E) which tended to suppress the RP experience at times. I don't put RP up on any kind of pedestal as the "correct" way to play, but it has been central to most of my experiences since pretty much the beginning.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
Once people started participating in larger conversations about gaming, whether in AP fanzines, the letters pages of Dragon or other magazines, at conventions, or later, on the internet, we got to see more debates about what roleplaying was or should be.
You also had the RPGA at this time - from about 1980 on. RPGA tournaments were a different animal from the AD&D Open. The Open was goal oriented - the team generally advanced on how far the PCs got in dealing with challenges, some combat, some exploration, etc. But the role playing was generally not emphasized in advancing - it was more likely to slow you down in achieving the goals.
The RPGA tournament players advanced, by comparison, individually based on the judgment of the DM and table about who role played their character best or most evocatively. And, yeah, while we had always done some role playing, our first RPGA tournament at Winter Fantasy in Lake Geneva (about 1985ish?) was an eye opener.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Here is the post where it points out that, not in OD&D, but straight from the basic set, playing a role was the stated intent of the game. When a game states, in the very first lines of its introduction, what type of game it is, for what reason, and what is expected, I find it somewhat disingenuous...

We should not make calling each other intentional liars our starting point. Please let's avoid the accusative language, okay?

The issue isn't that the term "role playing" doesn't exist in there. The question is what that really meant at the time vs what it means now.
 


Narq

Villager
I would ponder this. I do not think the Role Playing has changed in so much as my perception of it has. The basic concept has always remained the same but how each group or individual player views may have. Take for instance playing any race or class in first or second edition AD&D, then take a look at 3rd, 4th or 5th. Mechanically they are different but the underlay precepts of what Role Playing is still the same, but the how not the what may have changed. I wouldn't play a fighter from 1sd ED the same I way I would in say like Pathfinder or 5E. Some times its the mechanics that allow you to broaden how you view, sometimes its simply just pure imagination. Looking back when I started playing at 12 years old, I knew so little about the world or even myself, but now that I am far older (Gandolfs age) I wouldn't even play that same 1st edition fighter the same, Experience and life has broaden that horizon. Couple that social media with pod casts and mainstream popularity this also influence that perception, neither good nor bad but it is there none the less.
 

Lyxen

Great Old One
We should not make calling each other intentional liars our starting point. Please let's avoid the accusative language, okay?

The issue isn't that the term "role playing" doesn't exist in there. The question is what that really meant at the time vs what it means now.
My apologies, it's just not how this all started, for once, and I was sort of being accused myself of lying about all the references that I had provided before. Moreover, I've seen this too many time about 5e, people trying to claim that it is not a roleplaying game because the combat rules are such a large part of the rulebooks, which is actually calling the designers themselves liars, when these tell the reader, in the first paragraphs of their books, that the intent of their work is to be a roleplaying game (and indeed explaining why). Hence the word that I used, but you are right, maybe I should have used "biased" instead.
 

Puddles

Adventurer
I wasn't around at the time but I have interest in the history of Skirmish (Man-to-man) wargaming of this era and I have a copy of 'The Old West Skirmish Wargames, Wargaming Western Gunfights' which I believe to be the first man-to-man skirmish wargame and very influential on D&D.

This book has several passages that talks about the personalities that would develop for individual characters (miniatures) during a campaign. Either those that rose organically out of gameplay, ones that arose from their 'abilities and factors' (i.e that arose out of their associated rules mechanics), and then personalities determined by 'traits', (Bravery, Intelligence, Disposition, Reliability and Morals) - the later of which was a series of soft guidelines about how they would behave if they were real.

No matter what the origin of the fighters personality, the spirit of the game was to 'roleplay' (the term is used) their actions in accordance with their personality and the Umpire should prevent out-of-character decision making. In addition, you were to base your actions only on what information they would be aware of as if the situation were real (basically, don't meta-game).

I hope this is a useful addition to the thread, but here is an influential publication (the editions of which came out between 1970 to 1977), that clearly had the modern idea of roleplaying ingrained within it. I would think the same could be said of D&D at the time even if they lacked the modern vocabulary to express it in detail.
 

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