Has the wave crested? (Bo9S)

[hong]

Impossible. Why would any player buy a book that reduces a class's power?

Heck, IIRC someone here mentioned that all the spellcasting PrCs since Complete Divine (well, the great majority of them) have been WEAKER than a single-classed spellcaster. So it would appear WotC has noticed that casters are strong, and are trying to ensure they don't become stronger. But the result is that people basically don't use those PrCs. So asking people to accept a nerfed base class seems very much like Canute vs tide.

 

[FireLance]

Impossible. Why would any player buy a book that reduces a class's power?

There are a few reasons: greater simplicity, whether in character creation, character advancement, pre-game preparation, or during play. Alternatively, better flavor, or class abilities that mesh more closely with the player's concept of the class, or that better suit his favored play style.

Sheer power is not the only thing that makes a class fun for a player.

 

[hong]

There are a few reasons: greater simplicity, whether in character creation, character advancement, pre-game preparation, or during play. Alternatively, better flavor, or class abilities that mesh more closely with the player's concept of the class, or that better suit his favored play style.

Sheer power is not the only thing that makes a class fun for a player.

Hey, whose side are you on anyway?

 

[Nepenthe]

There are a few reasons: greater simplicity, whether in character creation, character advancement, pre-game preparation, or during play. Alternatively, better flavor, or class abilities that mesh more closely with the player's concept of the class, or that better suit his favored play style.

Sheer power is not the only thing that makes a class fun for a player.

But, short of a new edition, how would this be accomplished? Inside the current edition, the only feasible long-term solution IMHO is to balance everything to the level of the most powerful core class :\

That said, I prefer the Warblade over the fighter to a great deal not because of his power, but due to the fact that his diplomacy and 2 knowledge skills with the higher skill points give him at least a theoretical possibility of weighing in outside of combat.

/N

 

[satori01]

For all the claims of Clerics & Druids being overpowered, I still rarely see people play them, especially Clerics. The class just does not seem to appeal to a certain type of personality, and apparently my friends have it.

I like Bo9S, I think it does increase fun creep more than power creep, but again it is book of classes that require alot of management, which is not going to appeal to some people.

Anything that takes away, move, Attack, Full Attack, move. Some D&D combats feel more like watching an old comedic boxing match, where both participants either run away, until they reach a point were either they are cornered, or hit the spot of their choosing and full attack.

Activities Like Sundering, Bull Rushes, Tripping etc are more flavorful when handled by maneuvers and instead of by precious feats.

I also think it can reduce in some ways the damage output of melee characters. First off, the high level maneuvers have saving throws, which is something that does not apply to the Hasted, Divine Might, Power Attacking Paladin with a Holy Keen Falchion and Bless Weapon.... there was not a power deficiency for melee-ist at high level, melee-ist are more powerful than casters at that level in terms of DPS, but a coolness gap.

The second main balancing factor is alot of those strikes are standard or full round actions, which will take itterative attacks out of the equation.

 

[DungeonmasterCal]

I love Bo9S:ToB so bad it hurts!

 

[pawsplay]

I don't have the book with me, but I am fairly sure that neither of the warrior-type classes (crusader or warblade) qualifies for any of the "air walking" powers; those are strictly the swordsages domain, who has basically nothing to do with the fighter (and a lot to do with the monk). As for cutting walls in half... I'm not sure that anything in this book really changes that from the way it was before?

There are a number of ways of doing some really insane stuff, like +100 to damage. Has it ever occured to you that maneuver could be used to cut an adamantine wall in half?

Ah, and now I see your point, "not even in spells". Apart from not really agreeing on adding stuff that spells can't do (didn't somebody earlier in this thread say that they didn't like it because it was just spells for fighters?), I'm not sure what you mean with the rest. I am assume that you mean that all the swift actions interrupt the rhythm of the combat and slow it down? Maybe... but I'd rather be interrupted, than "full attack again!".

I'd rather not deal with, "another full attack.... again, again." Swift actions are relatively easy to deal with; immediate actions, additional move actions, additional standard actions, and additional full actions are more problematic.

At this point I have to ask, have you read the book or are you just going by what you've read on the forums? I mean, IIRC, the warblade illustration has a guy with a longsword in chainmail about to hack things up...

I've spent a substantial amount of time paging through it. I'm not in the habit of rejecting something without understanding it.

Yes, there are guys with longswords in the illustrations. I wasn't mentioning a specific weapon and armor combination because I'm personally attached to that combination, but as something symbolic of the swords-and-sorcery genre.

The reason I'm singling out your post for what might seem like some fairly harsh replies is the reason that I honestly believe your opinions are based on misconceptions.

You may have some misconceptions about my misconceptions. It's always dangerous to assume that because someone has different opinions, they are less knowledgeable.

If you own the book, have carefully read it and think the above, then I am ok with you thinking that way. But if you have just read bits and pieces and built the above image from it, then I think you are just plain misinformed.
Cheers,
/N

I think I'm about as informed as I'm going to be without spending money on a product I do not believe I want.

 

[hong]

There are a number of ways of doing some really insane stuff, like +100 to damage. Has it ever occured to you that maneuver could be used to cut an adamantine wall in half?

Heh. Strike of Perfect Clarity is actually relatively weak, big numbers notwithstanding. As for cutting an adamantine wall in half, you can already Power attack for -20/+40 and do it with a regular full attack. It's not like the wall is going to try to dodge you.

 

[pawsplay]

Heh. Strike of Perfect Clarity is actually relatively weak, big numbers notwithstanding. As for cutting an adamantine wall in half, you can already Power attack for -20/+40 and do it with a regular full attack. It's not like the wall is going to try to dodge you.

Hong, that won't even break down an iron wall.

 

[pawsplay]

Heh. Strike of Perfect Clarity is actually relatively weak, big numbers notwithstanding. As for cutting an adamantine wall in half, you can already Power attack for -20/+40 and do it with a regular full attack. It's not like the wall is going to try to dodge you.

Let me also add that I didn't say the maneuver was useful or overpowered, or even medium-powered, simply that it allowed you to do something I don't want ever to happen in my D&D game without good reason.