I'm really hesitant about the multiple targets for haste. Okay, it doesn't work for spellcasters all that much. Well they still get an AC bonus and an extra move when they need to high tail it. And why wouldn't he cast it when he can effect all the fighter types allong with it. I think haste as it is now written is actually more powerful in a lot of ways.
[Haste] The new information
- Thread starter Mort
- Start date
Simulacrum
First Post
The extra move action is what makes it overpowered again.
why not simply add +30 feet movement and everything would be fine...summing up:
+30 foot movement
+1 attack (that must be made in the attack action)
+2 AC
+2 Attack
-
but wait...I shouldnt complain, my favorites are the fighter types anyway!
why not simply add +30 feet movement and everything would be fine...summing up:
+30 foot movement
+1 attack (that must be made in the attack action)
+2 AC
+2 Attack
-
but wait...I shouldnt complain, my favorites are the fighter types anyway!
Simulacrum
First Post
Caliban said:
...yeees.....caliban you sharp eyed bastard
Elder-Basilisk
First Post
The concern I have with this is that it seems to be dramatically tipping the scales of offense/defense. In 3.0e, it was possible (although not easy without doing cheesy duellist or monk and quintuple empowered buffing tricks) to push a character's AC to the point that he was actually difficult for a melee focussed monster or PC to hit. In 3.5e, Haste--a very significant component of that equation is effectively disappearing (+2 to hit and +2 to AC is a net of +0 to the defense instead of the net of +4 that 3.0 haste was). With 3.5e haste effecting multiple targets, it will be even rarer for PCs to be facing unhasted opponents. Consequently, it should be expected that the (already limited) popularity of defensive fighting styles (shield, heavy armor, and one handed weapon) will be even further diminished in favor of the two handed weapon or dual wield then multiclass with barbarian for rage damage maximizing fighting styles.
What's more, I see this having a dramatic effect upon the viability of wizard characters. In 3.0e, it was possible for wizards to actually have a decent AC with Shield, Mage Armor, and Haste. Considering that wizards have very few spells (polymorph, and Foresight) that improve AC other than Shield, Mage Armor, Haste, and Protection from Evil, none of those spells scale with caster level, and both Shield and Haste are being nerfed (Haste into effective defensive uselessness), it seems that wizards who don't want to walk around polymorphed into trolls or hags are effectively without any way of boosting their AC past the point where the fighter's only question is "how much do I power attack?" It's already bad enough for wizards who are forced into melee (or worse yet, wizards with players foolish enough to design them to enter melee). 3.5e changes all seem to make this problem worse.
Introducing more defensive spells, reducing some in level (Perhaps a limited version of Foresight at 5th level or so) or allowing existing ones to scale (perhaps shield and mage armor could increase +1/5 or 1/3 levels to a maximum of +7 and +8) would remedy the balance.
What's more, I see this having a dramatic effect upon the viability of wizard characters. In 3.0e, it was possible for wizards to actually have a decent AC with Shield, Mage Armor, and Haste. Considering that wizards have very few spells (polymorph, and Foresight) that improve AC other than Shield, Mage Armor, Haste, and Protection from Evil, none of those spells scale with caster level, and both Shield and Haste are being nerfed (Haste into effective defensive uselessness), it seems that wizards who don't want to walk around polymorphed into trolls or hags are effectively without any way of boosting their AC past the point where the fighter's only question is "how much do I power attack?" It's already bad enough for wizards who are forced into melee (or worse yet, wizards with players foolish enough to design them to enter melee). 3.5e changes all seem to make this problem worse.
Introducing more defensive spells, reducing some in level (Perhaps a limited version of Foresight at 5th level or so) or allowing existing ones to scale (perhaps shield and mage armor could increase +1/5 or 1/3 levels to a maximum of +7 and +8) would remedy the balance.
Elder-Basilisk
First Post
I think the problem is just as bad for the fighter or paladin who gets haste cast on him. By level ten, characters seem to need to have AC 26-30 if the bad guys are going to ever miss them without power attacking. Usually in 3.5e, characters seem to get AC in a few ways:
The fighter/mage
+2 Mithral chain shirt, +1 shield, shield spell, 18 dex after cat's grace, amulet of natural amor +1, ring of protection +1, haste
3.0 AC 36. 3.5 AC 28. (effective 26 against hasted enemies)
The Paladin (or cleric)
+2 fullplate, +1 large shield, shield of faith, haste
3.0 AC 30 3.5 AC 28. (effective 26 against hasted enemies).
The "I've got enough AC you probably won't power attack"
+1 fullplate, shield of faith, haste
3.0 AC 26 3.5 AC 24 (effective 22 against hasted enemies)
Without Shield of Faith: "You might miss if you power attacked"
3.0 AC 23 3.5 AC 21 (effective 19 against hasted enemies).
Whereas in 3.0, it was possible to pump up a character's armor class at high levels, it appears to be far less possible in 3.5 unless something else is changed.
This is a change in favor of the "crank up the hit points, max out your strength, rage, and hope to kill it before it kills you" fighter/barbarian that is already the most effective destroyer class in 3e. Hopefully, other changes that we haven't seen yet will help to retain variety among viable and effective fighter types in 3.5e.
(It's significant that the reputed changes to buff spells (+5 to stat, 10 min/level) also favor this class as strength increases yield exponential damage increases with no cap but dex increases yield arithmetic damage decreases (AC improvements) and are capped by an armor's max dex bonus).
The fighter/mage
+2 Mithral chain shirt, +1 shield, shield spell, 18 dex after cat's grace, amulet of natural amor +1, ring of protection +1, haste
3.0 AC 36. 3.5 AC 28. (effective 26 against hasted enemies)
The Paladin (or cleric)
+2 fullplate, +1 large shield, shield of faith, haste
3.0 AC 30 3.5 AC 28. (effective 26 against hasted enemies).
The "I've got enough AC you probably won't power attack"
+1 fullplate, shield of faith, haste
3.0 AC 26 3.5 AC 24 (effective 22 against hasted enemies)
Without Shield of Faith: "You might miss if you power attacked"
3.0 AC 23 3.5 AC 21 (effective 19 against hasted enemies).
Whereas in 3.0, it was possible to pump up a character's armor class at high levels, it appears to be far less possible in 3.5 unless something else is changed.
This is a change in favor of the "crank up the hit points, max out your strength, rage, and hope to kill it before it kills you" fighter/barbarian that is already the most effective destroyer class in 3e. Hopefully, other changes that we haven't seen yet will help to retain variety among viable and effective fighter types in 3.5e.
(It's significant that the reputed changes to buff spells (+5 to stat, 10 min/level) also favor this class as strength increases yield exponential damage increases with no cap but dex increases yield arithmetic damage decreases (AC improvements) and are capped by an armor's max dex bonus).
Skaros said:True enough, although I wouldn't mind terribly if the defensive abilities were checked a bit, causing wizards to rely more on their companions for protection. Maybe I'm a bit traditional there though
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