haste

Again, my two cents: Differeing power levels working different ways. In DS, there is a feat called Improved Shot on the Run. In effect, you get you full attack while on the move (run 10 ft; shoot, run 10 ft; shoot). Now throw in power armor (with a speed of 40) and plasma rifles...

On top of that, there is Pressing attack. Essentially, if you move 5 ft to make a full attack, I move with you. Go ahead... use that Rapid Shot buddy!!

3.0 Haste helped give the wizards an edge that kept them alive.
 
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Victim said:
kenobi65, was the problem that wizards and sorcerers that haste offered a disproportionate benefit to spellcasters, or that the wizard and sorcerer were only casting the spell on themselves? If some people are hasted and some aren't, the haste-nots are at a huge disadvantage.

More the former than the latter. The arcanists did try to "spread the love" when the party had time to buff, but, when time was of the essence, it was the arcanists who were usually hasted. The fighter getting one more swing at his highest attack bonus is nice, but the spellcaster being able to pop off a second Empowered Fireball in a round makes the extra swing pale in comparison.

Creating encounters that could challenge two arcane spellcasters who did that on a regular basis frequently meant creating encounters that would also prove to be very unbalanced against the party.
 

Maybe we could put the aging or system shock roll back in there from previous editions . . .

Let 'em have two spells ---

for a while.

-A
 



3.0 Haste altered the dynamics of combat in a very significant way. Now some people liked the direction that took them, DMs included, the combat had a swiftness about it that decided the encounter either way. Cinematically, It would have looked something like DBZ which I know people do like.

Otoh, combat without the extra partial action required a player to weigh up and choose their next action with greater care. A spellcaster couldn't buff and attack, a warrior couldn't trip and full attack. Damage dished out couldn't be piled on in a timeframe so short that left no opportunity for healing.

eg: I had the party Cleric get hit with two consequitive cones of cold for 20d6 damage total, killing him. Without haste the opponant could only do a similar 15d6+5d4+5 by investing in 2 extra feats. Instead I used the feats to boost the DC by 4, my bad. :eek:

My players stoically handled the above because they desired to get haste items themselves but then later on, in discussion, we agreed that every higher level party they should meet would have haste. One player (rightfully) objected saying that no one 3rd level spell should be the object of such desire and that the previous combat was ok for a deadly "boss fight" but not for the more common battles. I agreed with the sentiment but the haste spell demanded to be cast 1st chance or else one side would be at such a disadvantage, what to do?

Monster encounters over a day in a dungeon weren't really affected as they were there only to wear down the party, haste used here would bite the PC's when the big encounters came. It was only the encounters vs intelligent parties that made the spell really stand out (i.e. when it was used against the party).

In the end we house ruled haste to something similar to revised that someone here at ENWorld posted. I would have compensated anyone that had invested in boots of haste but we restarted campaigns so there wasn't an issue.
 

Storyteller01 said:
Again, my two cents: Differeing power levels working different ways. In DS, there is a feat called Improved Shot on the Run. In effect, you get you full attack while on the move (run 10 ft; shoot, run 10 ft; shoot). Now throw in power armor (with a speed of 40) and plasma rifles...

On top of that, there is Pressing attack. Essentially, if you move 5 ft to make a full attack, I move with you. Go ahead... use that Rapid Shot buddy!!

3.0 Haste helped give the wizards an edge that kept them alive.

So what you're saying is that 3.0 haste is ok...

in a rules variant that's totally berserk.
 

Delemental said:
Which begs an interesting question: assuming that the current 3.5 version of Haste is appropriately balanced for a 3rd level spell, what spell level do you think would be appropriate for a spell that replicated the 3.0 version and gave an extra partial action? Bear in mind that 3.0 Haste only affected one target, whereas 3.5 Haste is one per caster level.

It seems that azmodean would place it at 9th level. Agree? Disagree? Personally I'd put it around 7th.

If the spell allowed you to cast a spell the same time you cast haste (that is, it comes into effect immediately), I'd go with 9th level, maybe 8th. If you had to wait until the next round to see a benifit, I'd say 6th level.

The trick is, if the only downside to casting haste is that you blew a spell slot, that spell slot had better be pretty high. Otherwise it will get cast in every single fight at higher levels. If the downside is that you can't cast something else in the first round (as with most buffs) then it is much less powerful. At high levels, going first can be huge.
 

Hmm... More haste interpretation required!

You don't get your haste partial action on the turn you cast the spell. You get the AC bonus but the extra partial action is granted when you receive a turn. The wording is specific: "On your turn ..."
"On your turn" should be interpreted as "Upon receiving a turn" - not "during your turn". Otherwise this causes paradox.
The attacks of Evard's black tentacles occur "on your turn". If your wizards casts EBT then walks into the tentacles - who goes first? Does he get to move out before or only after the tentacles attack? Is he alive or dead?
This paradox can only be removed by interpreting "on your turn" as a specific instant in time - the moment you receive a turn. Therefore the tentacles act before he does and he's in a tight spot.

The discussion is completely and utterly moot as to "how it changed the game" because every 3.5 non-core supplement has tried hard to include extra actions - these come in the form of "swift" spells, sudden metamagic feats, divine metamagic, shism, fission, lion's pounce psionics and inumerable prestige class abilities.
If your players were haste junkies in core 3rd edition they're metamagic rod junkies in core 3.5.
3rd edition haste + timestop isn't any better than 3.5 extended (through rod) timestop + shapechange (choker) and a pile of maximize and empower metamagic rods. In fact the latter is MUCH more destructive.
 

Geez - where are all the metamagic rods comeing from? <slobber>

-A <--- barely able to afford scribing spells and buying some scrolls
 

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