Hasted Zombies?

[Hypersmurf]

With 3E Haste, there would be no question that a zombie could act normally. It added an extra action, and once you have the chance to do two standard actions in a round, you are up to what you normally have - in fact, it is even better. Normally, you can only get two actions in a round and one HAS to be movement. Under your 3E theory, you'd get BETTER than that - two actions and NEITHER has to be movement (though obviously they could be). So you could do a full round action in those circumstances.

Only a miscellaneous full round action.

Under normal circumstances, you could take a standard action (which was essentially a partial action plus a move or move-equivalent action), or a full round action.

The Zombie is restricted to a partial action.

Haste provided an extra partial action.

So a Hasted Zombie had two partial actions. The only way he could take a full round action would be to use his two partial actions to take the Start Full Round Action action and the Complete Full Round Action action... which would allow him to effectively undertake any miscellaneous full round action.

However, any full round action which was not a miscellaneous full round action, he could not take. And that includes Full Attack, which was an attack action, not a miscellaneous action.

So he could take two attack partial actions, but not a single full attack action.

Just because two partial actions lets you do something you couldn't normally do (like, say, attack once and cast a one-action spell) doesn't mean you can make up new rules about combining partial actions to make a non-miscellaneous full round action.

Let's say I normally have a choice of one-and-a-half oranges, or a banana.
Today, my choice was removed, and I was given a single orange. But I was lucky, and I found another orange.
Now I have two oranges. That's better than one-and-a-half oranges!
But it doesn't help if what I want is a banana.

Normally, in 3E, someone had a choice of a standard action (a partial action plus a move or move-equivalent action), or a full round action.
A Zombie doesn't get that choice - he can only take a partial action. But he's hasted, so he gets another partial action.
Now he has two partial actions! That's better than a partial action and a move action!
But it doesn't help if what he wants is a (non-miscellaneous) full round action.

Two partial actions is indisputably better than a standard action. But it is not necessarily better than a choice of a standard action or a full round action, because sometimes it's the full round action you want to take.

Your interpretation of 3.5E Haste is one possible interpretation, but without an official answer, your answer is not any more official than mine. Once I get the official answer I'll post it to this thread and we can then compare to what the Sage thinks. The reason I think your answer doesn't work as well is because it doesn't take into account the circumstances, but instead just blindly tries to apply the base mechanic to circumstances that don't support it, something that generally speaking is not how the rules are usually interpreted by the sage. But thanks for the input.

What circumstances that don't support it?

The zombie is a creature; it is not affected by a Slow spell; thus Haste has the effect dictated in the spell description for targeting a creature that is not affected by a Slow spell.

-Hyp.

 

[Altalazar]

Hyper- this is not something the rules directly address, and it is also a question of logic. Zombies move slower than normal creatures. What would be a way to speed them up to normal? I know, let's haste a zombie. Oh wait, since the rules makers didn't consider zombies and write a special rule about it, we must try and apply a mechanic designed to enhance a normal speed creature (in such a way that isn't 'broken' or overpowered due to extra spellcasting as discovered in 3.0) in a way that makes it do essentially nothing.

Ok, how about this - there's a new spell, called 'Haste Zombie' - this makes a zombie move normal speed. It lasts 1 rd / level. It affects one zombie per level. What level would that spell be? I'd say that is probably a 2nd level spell, given the limited effect and limited targets. But then if it is a 2nd level spell, there's no reason a 3rd level spell that already is all about speeding things up couldn't do the same thing.

I can see you claiming it is a 3rd level spell because of similarities to haste - but then you've done your best to show that haste is a completely dissimilar spell, so by that logic, there should be no such comparison.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Ok, how about this - there's a new spell, called 'Haste Zombie' - this makes a zombie move normal speed. It lasts 1 rd / level. It affects one zombie per level. What level would that spell be? I'd say that is probably a 2nd level spell, given the limited effect and limited targets. But then if it is a 2nd level spell, there's no reason a 3rd level spell that already is all about speeding things up couldn't do the same thing.

You mean apart from the fact that the 3rd level spell that speeds things up does it differently?

It's like saying "Fireball is all about frying things, so there's no reason you couldn't cast fireball to replicate the effect of a Scorching Ray, which is only a 2nd level spell." But even though they're both about frying things, they do it in very different ways. You can't just say "Fireball is a higher level, so it subsumes all lower level fire spells".

Creating a 2nd level speed-up spell doesn't alter the mechanics of the existing 3rd level spell Haste.

-Hyp.

 

[Altalazar]

You mean apart from the fact that the 3rd level spell that speeds things up does it differently?

It's like saying "Fireball is all about frying things, so there's no reason you couldn't cast fireball to replicate the effect of a Scorching Ray, which is only a 2nd level spell." But even though they're both about frying things, they do it in very different ways. You can't just say "Fireball is a higher level, so it subsumes all lower level fire spells".

Creating a 2nd level speed-up spell doesn't alter the mechanics of the existing 3rd level spell Haste.

-Hyp.

Apparently it does alter the mechanics, according to every one of your posts here. And the spell I proposed works only on ZOMBIES, so it is a much more limited spell than haste, which works on anything. And say you do come up with a spell that does fire damage ONLY TO ZOMBIES which is 2nd level and has a 20' raduis spread. Doesn't fireball then subsume it, because it will also do fire damage to zombies (and also everything else) in a 20' radius spread?

And you didn't answer my question - what level spell do you think it should be?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Apparently it does alter the mechanics, according to every one of your posts here.

Hmm?

Every one of my posts say that if you create a second level spell "Haste Zombie", the creation of that spell causes an alteration in the way that the third level spell "Haste" works?

I'm not sure I see it.

And say you do come up with a spell that does fire damage ONLY TO ZOMBIES which is 2nd level and has a 20' raduis spread. Doesn't fireball then subsume it, because it will also do fire damage to zombies (and also everything else) in a 20' radius spread?

If someone invented a 2nd level spell "Zombie Fireball" that dealt damage to only zombies, you could not then cast the 3rd level spell Fireball at a mixed group of zombies and PCs, and claim that you could cause it to only affect the zombies because Fireball is a higher level and thus should be able to mimic the effect of Zombie Fireball.

Similarly, you can't cast Haste and claim that it can have the effects of the Haste Zombie spell instead of the effects of the Haste spell just because Haste is a higher level. If you want to have the effects of the Haste Zombie spell, cast Haste Zombie. Don't cast Haste, because Haste works differently.

And you didn't answer my question - what level spell do you think it should be?

2nd is probably about right. But again, creating a 2nd level spell that suppresses Single Actions Only (Ex) doesn't suddenly make a 3rd level spell that doesn't suppress Single Actions Only (Ex) start doing so.

Whether or not you invent a Haste Zombie spell, the 3rd level spell Haste affects zombies just like anyone else - +1 bonus to AC, attacks, Reflex saves; doubled movement rate; an extra attack on a full attack action.

To change that, you don't need to rewrite Haste Zombie; you need to rewrite Haste.

-Hyp.

 

[Altalazar]

Hmm?

Every one of my posts say that if you create a second level spell "Haste Zombie", the creation of that spell causes an alteration in the way that the third level spell "Haste" works?

I'm not sure I see it.



If someone invented a 2nd level spell "Zombie Fireball" that dealt damage to only zombies, you could not then cast the 3rd level spell Fireball at a mixed group of zombies and PCs, and claim that you could cause it to only affect the zombies because Fireball is a higher level and thus should be able to mimic the effect of Zombie Fireball.

Similarly, you can't cast Haste and claim that it can have the effects of the Haste Zombie spell instead of the effects of the Haste spell just because Haste is a higher level. If you want to have the effects of the Haste Zombie spell, cast Haste Zombie. Don't cast Haste, because Haste works differently.



2nd is probably about right. But again, creating a 2nd level spell that suppresses Single Actions Only (Ex) doesn't suddenly make a 3rd level spell that doesn't suppress Single Actions Only (Ex) start doing so.

Whether or not you invent a Haste Zombie spell, the 3rd level spell Haste affects zombies just like anyone else - +1 bonus to AC, attacks, Reflex saves; doubled movement rate; an extra attack on a full attack action.

To change that, you don't need to rewrite Haste Zombie; you need to rewrite Haste.

-Hyp.

When I referred to your other posts I meant that your other posts seem to see the haste spell as doing something completely different and in no way related to speeding up zombies.

And perhaps I should have made up a different hypothetical. Say there is a haste zombie spell, that does what I suggest. And then I want to create a spell that does the same thing, except that it can affect non-zombies as well, but non-zombies, instead of getting an extra action like a zombie, only get the more limited effect of an extra attack and some extra speed and AC. What level spell would that be? If it would be level 3, then it seems silly to go through the whole exercise with not allowing haste to work on zombies like I suggested.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Say there is a haste zombie spell, that does what I suggest. And then I want to create a spell that does the same thing, except that it can affect non-zombies as well, but non-zombies, instead of getting an extra action like a zombie, only get the more limited effect of an extra attack and some extra speed and AC. What level spell would that be? If it would be level 3, then it seems silly to go through the whole exercise with not allowing haste to work on zombies like I suggested.

That's up to the DM.

But you're still talking about creating a spell that is not Haste, and letting Haste have the same effect as the spell that is not Haste instead of the effect of Haste.

If the DM is happy to allow it, no problem. I already said I'd let it work in my own game if someone requested it.

If the DM wants to run Haste strictly, but allow you to research a 3rd level almost-Haste that functions as you describe, that's a second option.

If the DM wants to run Haste strictly, and disallows the research of a 3rd level almost-Haste, that's something the player has to live with.

-Hyp.

 

[Altalazar]

That's up to the DM.

But you're still talking about creating a spell that is not Haste, and letting Haste have the same effect as the spell that is not Haste instead of the effect of Haste.

If the DM is happy to allow it, no problem. I already said I'd let it work in my own game if someone requested it.

If the DM wants to run Haste strictly, but allow you to research a 3rd level almost-Haste that functions as you describe, that's a second option.

If the DM wants to run Haste strictly, and disallows the research of a 3rd level almost-Haste, that's something the player has to live with.

-Hyp.

You forgot option 4 - the DM reads my Q&A to the sage and sees what the official rules answer is for Haste. Of course, a DM can always play custom rules that don't conform to the official rules.

 

[Hypersmurf]

You forgot option 4 - the DM reads my Q&A to the sage and sees what the official rules answer is for Haste.

There's already an official rules answer for Haste...

Haste
Transmutation
Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets: One creature/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

The transmuted creatures move and act more quickly than normal. This extra speed has several effects.

When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding. The attack is made using the creature’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as that provided by a weapon of speed, nor does it actually grant an extra action, so you can’t use it to cast a second spell or otherwise take an extra action in the round.)

A hasted creature gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls and a +1 dodge bonus to AC and Reflex saves. Any condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuses.

All of the hasted creature’s modes of movement (including land movement, burrow, climb, fly, and swim) increase by 30 feet, to a maximum of twice the subject’s normal speed using that form of movement. This increase counts as an enhancement bonus, and it affects the creature’s jumping distance as normal for increased speed.

Multiple haste effects don’t stack. Haste dispels and counters slow.

Material Component: A shaving of licorice root.​

-Hyp.

 

[Starglim]

Hyper- this is not something the rules directly address, and it is also a question of logic.

Oh logic! That's all right then.