have 3rd parties gotten the srd yet?

Just a hope. There has been no official announcement or promise of any kind.

BUT you can tell from the blogs that the rules are in binders and are in a relatively stable format now. They are out to playtesters. They are clearly, in my view, in a state that - while not final - can be shared with third party publishers.

I am trying to encourage WotC to understand that there is some significant resistance to edition change. Its evident from these and other boards. I think they do understand that. And if there are 3rd party publishers who want to switch to 4E, like Necro, that they have a strong incentive to get that stuff to us so we can be there at launch for 4E.

I think there are a good chunk of gamers that are on the fence about 4E and they are waiting to see what some of their trusted publishers decide to do. I sure hope that to at least some gamers I am one of those publishers. I'm sure Paizo is and Green Ronin and others. So if I am sitting here saying we are switching to 4E I just see it as a big mistake for WotC to not get us rules just as fast as possible. It just strikes me that it is in their best interests to do this. And as a general matter, my life experience indicates that people tend to do what is in their best interest when given the choice.

I know they are busy. I know they want to support open gaming. I am willing to do whatever it takes to help facilitate them getting the rules out to, at a minimum, trusted publishers who have been good caretakers of content.

In the immortal words of Tom Cruise: "Help me help you."

Now dont get me wrong. I'm not trying to just be all "Mr. Altruism" here. I concede it is also in MY interests to get the rules early. But I see this as a win/win situation and I love win/win situations.

So short answer: no, there have been no promises or suggestions. Just my unceasing campaign to try to get WotC to get us the stuff early. And I'm not just saying for Necro, I am saying for all 3rd party publishers.

In particular I am concerned for print publishers because of the long turn around time for products. These arent the days of early 3E where a 32 page module is a viable product anymore (well, they can be, but I digress). Print publishers in particular are faced with the same long print lead times that WotC is facing with the production of their PHB, MM and DMG. Their "pencil down" date is pretty much our pencil down date for hard print products. We cant just slap stuff together at the last minute and have valid products that properly support 4E. The market wont bear it. The distributors wont bear it. We need the proper lead time to create good quality products for 4E. And January doesnt cut it. The rule changes here seem to be significant enough that design is hampered by development withuot the rules. Heck, we dont even know what core races and classes are going to be available at launch in the PHB.

I think 3rd party support has been a big part of the success of 3E and I see 3rd party support as very important to the success of 4E. I'm a gamer and a D&D fan first, business person second. And I want D&D to thrive and succeed. And I want to help that happen. I think it is a mistake to not help the 3rd party publishers help that happen. We've made some great stuff for D&D. Look at Paizo. And, I'm not ashamed to say, look at Necro. I cant tell you how many people started their 3E campaigns with Wizard's Amulet and Crucible of Freya, etc. I got so many emails saying "we werent going to go 3E but we loved Amulet (which was and still is free) and ran Crucible and now we love it!" I think 3rd party publishers can do the same for 4E. And as a fan of D&D I would hate to see a fractured market for D&D. That spells bad things for the game as a whole, and as the industry leader goes so goes the industry.

Clark
 

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The Last thing WOTC wants is for the following to happen.

Third party developer #1: Hey, where is the 4th edition SRD? I want to develop awesome products for 4th edition!
Third party developer #2: There is no 4th edition SRD yet! WOTC didn't send us one yet! We arn't gonna get an SRD until June!
Third party developer #1: But what will be do until then?
Third party developer #2: Let's develop more 3.5 products! You can never have enough 3.5 products!
Third party developer #1: Capital idea! Let us develop more 3.5 products instead of 4th edition products!

Many months later....

Consumer #1: Hey 4th edition is out! Let us buy a bunch of 4th edition books!
Consumer #2: What's the point of buying it now? There is just the core books.
Consumer #1: You are right! There is no support for it! Where are the adventures and various other products? I want more then just the three core books. I guess I'll just wait until more products come out.
Consumer #2: But what will we buy in the mean time?
Consumer #1: Let's buy more 3.5 products! You can never have enough 3.5 products!
Consumer #2: Capital idea! Let us buy more 3.5 products instead of 4th edition products!
 

reasion for some hope;

today from Andy Collins' Blog on WoTC


After lunch, I sat down with Dave Noonan, Chris Tulach, and Greg Bilsland to get an update on how 4E playtesting is going and talk about what the next phase of playtesting might look like. Later that afternoon, R&D and brand talked over OGL issues, inching us closer to a plan for this very important license.

So they are working on it
 

wedgeski said:
No NDA in the world will keep that document from hitting the net within a few days of its release.
Actually, 2 out of 2 times so far, the rules have been given to publishers early and they haven't been posted on the net. Playtesters are far more of a "security threat" than publishers, because being in a business to business relationship, publishers are orders of magnitude more likely to be slammed by WotC for NDA violation than playtesters are. Publishers are in it as a business to make money. There's nothing in there that would motivate them to risk it all to post the documents on the internet.

Besides, as I said above, in 2 out of 2 editions, publishers haven't leaked details. In 2 out of 2, playtesters have. (Although I guess you could argue that it was really publishers lying about being paytesters.) But the incentives for publishers to not violate their NDA are much higher than it is for a playtester where the likely punishment for an NDA violation - depending on how serious it is - is most likely just being banned from future playtesting. For a publisher, being caught violating the NDA could get WotC on your back and pretty much sink the chances of ever having a business.
 

Orcus said:
In particular I am concerned for print publishers because of the long turn around time for products. These arent the days of early 3E where a 32 page module is a viable product anymore (well, they can be, but I digress). Print publishers in particular are faced with the same long print lead times that WotC is facing with the production of their PHB, MM and DMG. Their "pencil down" date is pretty much our pencil down date for hard print products. We cant just slap stuff together at the last minute and have valid products that properly support 4E. The market wont bear it. The distributors wont bear it. We need the proper lead time to create good quality products for 4E. And January doesnt cut it. The rule changes here seem to be significant enough that design is hampered by development withuot the rules. Heck, we dont even know what core races and classes are going to be available at launch in the PHB.

I'm behind you 150%. Most likely we are going to come out with 1 to 2 products that will be full color that I'm going to need to get imported from China. Not sure who you guys use for printing, but I'm looking at 3 months once the product is sent out and finished just to get it here in the US. Add onto that the craziness with customs, and I'm pretty concerned. Granted, we haven't been doing much lately and this isn't mission critical for our company. I can imagine this is a much more pressing issue for you, Green Ronin, and Paizo.

We halted progress on our Violet Dawn Campaign setting earlier this year because I heard that 4e was going to hit come Gencon. I want to have it out for Gencon, but I question the feasibility of that if we don't get something until January. By all accounts, the system appears to be drastically different at least from a design prospective, and just like you I'd like to get a chance to digest the rules and see how everything works before we commit to doing our first product. Denizens of Avadnu set a good precedent for us, and I can't risk rushing something out the door just to have a release.

Can you do me a favor and keep me apprised if you do hear anything? My email is jeffv at icirclegames.com Thanks!
 

kenmarable said:
being caught violating the NDA could get WotC on your back and pretty much sink the chances of ever having a business.

Very true… while WoTC may not levy a lawsuit against a playtester, they will against another publisher.

I think they are just working on the 4e rules set as we speak, once it’s set in stone, I feel confident that we will get a look at the rules, and get to work creating some cool 4e products.
 

Orcus said:
I think there are a good chunk of gamers that are on the fence about 4E and they are waiting to see what some of their trusted publishers decide to do. I sure hope that to at least some gamers I am one of those publishers. I'm sure Paizo is and Green Ronin and others. So if I am sitting here saying we are switching to 4E I just see it as a big mistake for WotC to not get us rules just as fast as possible. It just strikes me that it is in their best interests to do this. And as a general matter, my life experience indicates that people tend to do what is in their best interest when given the choice.
I agree with these statements. If there is one major concern I have about this whole 4e thing it is the timing of 3rd party support. I am probably an extreme example of the normal D&D DM/buyer in that I buy a LOT of books and PDFs from third party publishers, and often times I have reluctantly paid for both for the same product.

One thing I would like to know is if other third party publishers will also take on a subscription model like Paizo where if they buy the print product in subscription mode they get the PDF for free, or if they buy the print book from their FLGS or online store, if they can buy the PDF for a nominal cost, like WOTC is presumably doing for 4e books.

I use both PDF and Print; PDF for my in-game sessions, print for planning and reading on the sofa. I furiously cut and paste for my players, and I use as much of the visual aids from the products in game. (Which BTW, presumes that art should be contextual, not just random filler pieces).

I buy from and supported Paizo, Necro, Green Ronin, Goodman, Paradigm, Ronin Arts, Malhavoc, Troll Lords, Monkeygod, Bad Axe, AEG, Fiery Dragon, EN Publishing, Atlas, FFG, Inner Circle, Mongoose, XRP, and closed/defunt rpg publishers Bastion and Mystic Eye.

WOTC, PLEASE SUPPORT THE 3RD PARTY MARKET SOON!!!! It makes me want to buy more of YOUR product, if 3rd party publishers can use it as well. This begs the question about whether the OGL will provide that all print product mechanics from WOTC will become open content (except maybe campaign worlds).

my 2cp.
 

JVisgaitis said:
I'm behind you 150%. Most likely we are going to come out with 1 to 2 products that will be full color that I'm going to need to get imported from China. Not sure who you guys use for printing, but I'm looking at 3 months once the product is sent out and finished just to get it here in the US. Add onto that the craziness with customs, and I'm pretty concerned. Granted, we haven't been doing much lately and this isn't mission critical for our company. I can imagine this is a much more pressing issue for you, Green Ronin, and Paizo.
Forgive my print publishing newbie question, but is there benefit in having 3rd party publishers acutally time their releases together, and work together to combine printing overseas to save some $$ and get full color done cheaper because there are 3-5 different products being printed instead of 1?
 

Orcus (or any of the other publishers),

How likely do you consider the delay being caused by WotC is still drafting new licences? I mean like an OGL 2.0 licence as well as the supersede to the d20 licence, something that closes various holes (i.e. Book of Erotic Fantasy) except even more limitting then the past.
 

Seems like WotC may want to keep the 4E launch firmly about WotC, and it's hard to fault them for that. I can imagine a scenario in which 3rd party stuff isn't allow to be published until the Fall of next year, so WotC can maximize sales of their initial suite of products. I'm sure they don't want the waters muddied on day 1 with dozens of 3rd party products hitting the shelves alongside their books.
 

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