D&D General Have Githzerai always been jerks?

[neogod22]

The githzerai are a race of inhabitants of limbo, co-existing with the slaadi

That's the introduction to the Fiend Folio description of the Githerzai, p. 45. That's as canonical as you can get, since that's the official introduction.

So, you can take that word choice up with the official powers that be.

You're also quoting an edition that's out of date, which really makes your argument invalid. I never saud it doesn't say it, just it's wrong.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Co-existing just means living in the same place. It doesn't automatically imply that it is peaceful.

 

[lowkey13]

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[Kobold Avenger]

In Planescape Githzerai are CN, and a lot of the fluff there reflects it. One of the most significant Githzerai was Karan, the factol of the Xaositect faction, but he was completely not like any Githzerai at all.

They mainly became LN in 5e because of a poll of asking what their alignment should be, in that period between 4e and 5e.

 

[Umbran]

If you place them as denizens of Limbo, like the Fiend Folio did (sayng that co-exist with the slaadi), then they would have to be CN like the plane, right?

Well, they aren't originally native to that plane. They came to it later - after breaking away from the people of Gith. And, iirc, they don't co-exist peacefully with the slaadi.

That's how 1e cosmology works.

1e cosmology has a plane named "Olympus", where you'd expect all the Olympian gods to live. But not all the Olympian gods are good, and the plane is good, and only good gods reside there. So... whatever.

Conceptual integrity was not a strong suit of the 70s, when they made all this stuff up.

 

[neogod22]

?????

Dude, what are you even getting at?* It's all made-up stuff that changes from edition to edition, book to book, and you can do whatever you want in your home campaign.

I just use the original source- do what you want, and argue with someone else who doesn't know any better.


*I literally said the following that you are arguing with, when you said that they didn't co-exist:
"If you place them as denizens of Limbo, like the Fiend Folio did (saying that co-exist with the slaadi), then they would have to be CN like the plane, right? That's how 1e cosmology works."

But sure, if you assume I meant that I wasn't talking about the Fiend Folio, or 1e, whatever. I mean, why should I even bother stating that I am using the Fiend Folio, and discussing the first edition if you're going to ignore it?

The argument is you want to be right. I never said you were wrong, I said the book is wrong.

Another example if the book being wrong is, My PHB for 5e I bought on day 1, has the spell Destructive Smite, which is a misprint of Destructive Wave, Soul Trap, which doesn't exist, and there is another spell listed that doesn't exist. Humans edit these books and humans make mistakes, but once the book is printed, the mistakes are there forever in that particular book. They can fix them in reprints and newer editions, but it's there.

 

[lowkey13]

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[lowkey13]

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[Tyler Do'Urden]

My take is that the Githzerai and Slaadi largely ignore each other. The Githzerai's concerns have little to nothing to do with the Slaadi, and over the aeons many young Slaadi have learned the hard way that Githzerai are too much trouble to make a good lunch, so they treat them with as much respect as a giant chaos-frog can muster.

 

[lowkey13]

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[neogod22]

Well, look at the full context again.

The githzerai are a race of inhabitants of limbo, co-existing with the slaadi, roaming the Prime Material Plane like the githyanki and constantly at war with the latter race.

So, they are constantly at war with the Githyanki, NOT the slaadi with whom the co-exist.

In addition, co-exist usually carries the connotation of mutual tolerance; you don't normally say that you co-exist with someone you are at war with.

Finally, compare the specific, and different, description here:
The githzerai and the mind flayers hold to an uneasy truce, but this is constantly being broken in isolated skirmishes.

See, that's a truce with skirmishes; not co-existence. You can also contrast that with Kuo Toa, who always attack githzerai. (P. 59).

Then, note the Slaadi description-

The slaadi are great frog-like beings, who dwell on the outer plane of Limbo where also dwell the githzerai (q.v.).

Does it say that they are hostile? At war? An uneasy truce? Nope. Just that they both live there.


Again, people can, and did, do what they want. But there isn't any source to say that they were warring with each other when they were introduced.




The integrity actually started stronger; there was usually a distinction between named beings (pantheons of Deities, ahem) and the denizens of the plane. The common denizens of the plane were the alignment of the outer plane. I'm sure there is an exception in 1e (there always is!) but I can't think of it now.

So that's why it makes perfect sense that Githzerai would be coded as CN if they were inhabitants of Limbo.

Are you still reading out of your 3e book?

 

[lowkey13]

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[neogod22]

My take is that the Githzerai and Slaadi largely ignore each other. The Githzerai's concerns have little to nothing to do with the Slaadi, and over the aeons many young Slaadi have learned the hard way that Githzerai are too much trouble to make a good lunch, so they treat them with as much respect as a giant chaos-frog can muster.

I get that. I figure they won't assault Gith fortresses since they are too much trouble, but if they catch a Gith patrol, they won't hesitate to attack. I see the Slaadi's only goal is to infect as many ppl as they can to grow their numbers. They aren't as much as a threat to existence as the Demons of the Abyss are, but may be a close 2nd.

 

[Nagol]

Also, while I hate to reference this book (for reals) the Manual of the Planes has a section on Limbo and is quite clear that the Slaad and the Githerzai inhabit the first layer of Limbo together, and that while the slaadi outnumber the githzerai "the two races exist in relative peace."

p. 99

Again, this is 1e, people can do what they want, etc. But this is the genesis.

Nevermind, I finally caught up.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Dakkon from Planescape torment was really cool, and the D&D Devs changed the race to be more like him. Going borderline Lawful Neutral in 3e and going full on Lawful Neutral in 4e and 5e.

 

[lowkey13]

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[Nagol]

Dude, I already quoted the Fiend Folio. See above. With pages and everything.

Lot of good it did.

(Reference to the genesis is 1e- when the gith came about... you know, back when they were cool and mysterious)

Yeah, I started reading at the bottom and worked up! Once I realised what was going on, I edited my post -- too late!

 

[Umbran]

Well, look at the full context again.

But let us think while we do that. For example, remembering that it isn't like there are only two states - peaceful coexistence and outright war.

The githzerai are a race of inhabitants of limbo, co-existing with the slaadi, roaming the Prime Material Plane like the githyanki and constantly at war with the latter race.

So, they are constantly at war with the Githyanki, NOT the slaadi with whom the co-exist.

In addition, co-exist usually carries the connotation of mutual tolerance; you don't normally say that you co-exist with someone you are at war with.

Tolerance... from the highly xenophobic Githzerai? They look down on, and are disregarding of the safety of, every other species in the multiverse, but they think, "The slaad? Those guys are okay!" Really?

And... you are saying that someone, anyone, is peacefully coexisting WITH SLAADI. Yeah, those frogs whose lords are madness or death, decay, and disorganization, who specifically and explicilty don't peacefully coexist with themselves! Because, you know, slaadi can be trusted to, say, keep agreements to not kill you or implant their eggs in you. Beings that arise from primordial chaos are trustworthy, right?

 

[lowkey13]

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[Dausuul]

Dang, that escalated fast. I'm just gonna go with what appears to be the consensus view in this thread: The githzerai and the slaadi are neither best buddies nor engaged in a war of mutual genocide, but rather follow a policy of "You don't bother us and we won't bother you."

My personal take is that the slaadi are barely even aware of githzerai citadels; the citadels are bastions of law and the slaadi are beings of primordial chaos. To slaadi, a citadel seems like a dead zone in Limbo, empty and sterile, and they instinctively avoid it. The githzerai are well aware of the slaadi, but see no reason to pick fights with them. Chaos frogs are just part of the landscape.