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D&D General Have Githzerai always been jerks?

neogod22

Explorer
Well, look at the full context again.

The githzerai are a race of inhabitants of limbo, co-existing with the slaadi, roaming the Prime Material Plane like the githyanki and constantly at war with the latter race.

So, they are constantly at war with the Githyanki, NOT the slaadi with whom the co-exist.

In addition, co-exist usually carries the connotation of mutual tolerance; you don't normally say that you co-exist with someone you are at war with.

Finally, compare the specific, and different, description here:
The githzerai and the mind flayers hold to an uneasy truce, but this is constantly being broken in isolated skirmishes.

See, that's a truce with skirmishes; not co-existence. You can also contrast that with Kuo Toa, who always attack githzerai. (P. 59).

Then, note the Slaadi description-

The slaadi are great frog-like beings, who dwell on the outer plane of Limbo where also dwell the githzerai (q.v.).

Does it say that they are hostile? At war? An uneasy truce? Nope. Just that they both live there.


Again, people can, and did, do what they want. But there isn't any source to say that they were warring with each other when they were introduced.




The integrity actually started stronger; there was usually a distinction between named beings (pantheons of Deities, ahem) and the denizens of the plane. The common denizens of the plane were the alignment of the outer plane. I'm sure there is an exception in 1e (there always is!) but I can't think of it now.

So that's why it makes perfect sense that Githzerai would be coded as CN if they were inhabitants of Limbo.
Are you still reading out of your 3e book?
 

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neogod22

Explorer
My take is that the Githzerai and Slaadi largely ignore each other. The Githzerai's concerns have little to nothing to do with the Slaadi, and over the aeons many young Slaadi have learned the hard way that Githzerai are too much trouble to make a good lunch, so they treat them with as much respect as a giant chaos-frog can muster.
I get that. I figure they won't assault Gith fortresses since they are too much trouble, but if they catch a Gith patrol, they won't hesitate to attack. I see the Slaadi's only goal is to infect as many ppl as they can to grow their numbers. They aren't as much as a threat to existence as the Demons of the Abyss are, but may be a close 2nd.
 

Nagol

Unimportant
Also, while I hate to reference this book (for reals) the Manual of the Planes has a section on Limbo and is quite clear that the Slaad and the Githerzai inhabit the first layer of Limbo together, and that while the slaadi outnumber the githzerai "the two races exist in relative peace."

p. 99

Again, this is 1e, people can do what they want, etc. But this is the genesis.

Nevermind, I finally caught up.
 

Dakkon from Planescape torment was really cool, and the D&D Devs changed the race to be more like him. Going borderline Lawful Neutral in 3e and going full on Lawful Neutral in 4e and 5e.
 


Nagol

Unimportant
Dude, I already quoted the Fiend Folio. See above. With pages and everything.

Lot of good it did.

(Reference to the genesis is 1e- when the gith came about... you know, back when they were cool and mysterious)

Yeah, I started reading at the bottom and worked up! Once I realised what was going on, I edited my post -- too late!
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Well, look at the full context again.

But let us think while we do that. For example, remembering that it isn't like there are only two states - peaceful coexistence and outright war.

The githzerai are a race of inhabitants of limbo, co-existing with the slaadi, roaming the Prime Material Plane like the githyanki and constantly at war with the latter race.

So, they are constantly at war with the Githyanki, NOT the slaadi with whom the co-exist.

In addition, co-exist usually carries the connotation of mutual tolerance; you don't normally say that you co-exist with someone you are at war with.

Tolerance... from the highly xenophobic Githzerai? They look down on, and are disregarding of the safety of, every other species in the multiverse, but they think, "The slaad? Those guys are okay!" Really?

And... you are saying that someone, anyone, is peacefully coexisting WITH SLAADI. Yeah, those frogs whose lords are madness or death, decay, and disorganization, who specifically and explicilty don't peacefully coexist with themselves! Because, you know, slaadi can be trusted to, say, keep agreements to not kill you or implant their eggs in you. Beings that arise from primordial chaos are trustworthy, right?
 


Dausuul

Legend
Dang, that escalated fast. I'm just gonna go with what appears to be the consensus view in this thread: The githzerai and the slaadi are neither best buddies nor engaged in a war of mutual genocide, but rather follow a policy of "You don't bother us and we won't bother you."

My personal take is that the slaadi are barely even aware of githzerai citadels; the citadels are bastions of law and the slaadi are beings of primordial chaos. To slaadi, a citadel seems like a dead zone in Limbo, empty and sterile, and they instinctively avoid it. The githzerai are well aware of the slaadi, but see no reason to pick fights with them. Chaos frogs are just part of the landscape.
 

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