Have Githzerai always been jerks?

neogod22

Explorer
Yeap, you "habe" me. Oh wait, my point was to correct the misinformation you were spreading. I won't call it lies - you were pretty clear that you were self-delusional in what was actually official. It was just wrong. As was the point you made based on what the "official" settings did for "every" edition of D&D.

It was a bit comical when you came back with your proof for every edition was just the change from tail-end of 4e to 5e. You did a great job of undermining your points so no one who reads the thread will accidentally mistake them for being correct.

Hasta la later.
What proof. I don't even care. You're just a faceless nobody who wants to feel important. What's comical is that you think this is gonna get you cool points on the internet. You're only doing this becaise you want to feel wanted. You don't get enough attention in your real life?

While disagreement is fine, we prefer you do so without being disagreeable. Don’t make it personal. If you think someone else made it personal, please don’t respond in kind, use the report button. That’s why it’s there.

Consider yourself on vacation from this thread and don’t post in it again.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Xenonnonex

Adventurer
What proof. I don't even care. You're just a faceless nobody who wants to feel important. What's comical is that you think this is gonna get you cool points on the internet. You're only doing this becaise you want to feel wanted. You don't get enough attention in your real life?
This is completely and utterly irrelevant.
 

QuentinGeorge

Explorer
Needs to be pointed out that Fr wasn't the only one to have lore explanations for edition changes. Die Vecna Die was in fact relevant to all settings (although the action only took place in Ravenloft, Greyhawk and Planescape) and Greyhawk had its own 1E -> 2E adventure, Fate of Istus. Assassins and monks would actually change into other classes in the conclusion of the adventure, a change that only makes sense if you remember those classes disappeared in 2nd edition. Mystara never got one because it stayed in Basic D&D until the end of that line and by the time it transitioned to 2nd Edition it was TSR's final days anyway. Dragonlance didn't have a transition adventure either, as I recall, but it had a sort of rocky, zombie-like existence in late 1st Edition and 2nd Edition. Of the 2nd edition settings, Spelljammer was already dead by the time 3rd edition rolled around, as was Birthright and Dark Sun. Al Qadim and Kara Tur were already folded up into the Forgotten Realms.

Interestingly the event in Dragonlance that might seem to be mandated by edition changes, the "Summer of Chaos", was not about transitioning the world from 2nd edition to SAGA. In fact, the novel was written first, and the game developers were left to try and scramble and build up a playable setting from the ashes. (It was a testament to some of the good design there that they did, even if people rejected it because it wasn't what they were used to.) Similarly, the War of Souls was more a Sundering-style reset to the world rather than an "explanation" of going from SAGA to 3rd Edition D&D, since the new edition of the game had been out for a few years anyway by then.
 

Mecheon

Explorer
The most important thing about Githzerai is that they only went the lawful route because Dak'kon was that compelling of a character, and Githzerai lore that bare beforehand that Dak'kon's lore just stuck on them. Dak'kon is good folks.

Didn't their boring wizard-king get a good reinvention in 5E that actually makes sense and isn't just his old copy-paste from the Githyanki he was previously?
 

dave2008

Hero
What proof. I don't even care. You're just a faceless nobody who wants to feel important. What's comical is that you think this is gonna get you cool points on the internet. You're only doing this becaise you want to feel wanted. You don't get enough attention in your real life?
Blue’s been here a lot longer than you. Based on your posts in this thread your descriptions of him/her seem to be a good representation of the public face you are presenting on this forum.
 

lowkey13

I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
Blue’s been here a lot longer than you. Based on your posts in this thread your descriptions of him/her seem to be a good representation of the public face you are presenting on this forum.
I've already got that person on ignore. I mean, you get in an argument with me? That's par for the course.

If you're trolling Blue, you have serious trolling issues.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Githzerai are jerks. Githyanki are jerks.

And you know what makes them both even jerkier? Abandoning their pointless conflict lore, uniting them as one race (the Gith) and having them focus their endless jerkiness onto the rest of the universe instead of each other.

And it doesn't matter what campaign I run, those same Gith are out there ready to ruin your day shorten your life. :devilish:
 

digitalelf

Explorer
FR wasn't the default setting for any edition prior to 5th.
Jeff Grubb made several statements both in Dragon Magazine, as well as in two 2nd edition FR products that 2e was THE home of FR (not just "A" home, but "THE" home).

Admittedly, that can be taken a couple of different ways.

Regardless...

The most compelling statement comes from Dragon magazine issue #153 (January 1990) in the article "The Game Wizards":

Jeff Grubb said:
The FORGOTTEN REALMS setting is TSRs official AD&D 2nd Edition world.
 

Blue

Orcus on a bad hair day
Jeff Grubb made several statements both in Dragon Magazine, as well as in two 2nd edition FR products that 2e was THE home of FR (not just "A" home, but "THE" home).

Admittedly, that can be taken a couple of different ways.

Regardless...

The most compelling statement comes from Dragon magazine issue #153 (January 1990) in the article "The Game Wizards":
I couldn't find anything on the Wizard's site, so I took my information from wikipedia: Dungeons & Dragons campaign settings - Wikipedia

Under the FR listing, it is listed as official only for 5e - but on closer inspection article does not list AD&D nor AD&D 2ed. With those Jeff Grubb sources you may want to update the Wikipedia article and preserve that knowledge.

However, the point under discussion was basically if the FR setting changes with edition meant that as a whole D&D always had changes to their official setting with edition. Basically, is setting change mandated by D&D edition change - must the setting have a timeline and the meta advance between bookmarks of edition changes. They were using FR as proof, and simply there were edition changes where the official setting had no timeline advancement. That FR was official for two of them instead of one is of interest, but doesn't really change the point.

Do you know what the official setting was for AD&D? That would be useful to update that wikipedia article.
 

digitalelf

Explorer
Do you know what the official setting was for AD&D? That would be useful to update that wikipedia article.
I think that up until about 1985, the default setting was World of Greyhawk; simply because almost every product, particularly the modules, up to that point were clearly set within WoG. So I think that "unofficially", the "official" setting for 1st edition was World of Greyhawk.
 

S'mon

Legend
I think that up until about 1985, the default setting was World of Greyhawk; simply because almost every product, particularly the modules, up to that point were clearly set within WoG. So I think that "unofficially", the "official" setting for 1st edition was World of Greyhawk.
The 1e DMG also references Greyhawk in the Artifacts section - albeit likely the Artifacts likely mostly came first, creating the Greyhawk lore.
 

digitalelf

Explorer
The 1e DMG also references Greyhawk in the Artifacts section - albeit likely the Artifacts likely mostly came first, creating the Greyhawk lore.
Yeah, many, if not most of the artifacts in the 1e DMG came from Original D&D (including stuff from the Strategic Review).
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Jeff Grubb made several statements both in Dragon Magazine, as well as in two 2nd edition FR products that 2e was THE home of FR (not just "A" home, but "THE" home).

Admittedly, that can be taken a couple of different ways.

Regardless...

The most compelling statement comes from Dragon magazine issue #153 (January 1990)
Given that this quote comes from early 1990, two things need be noted:

1. TSR was still trying to distance itself from Greyhawk (i.e Gygax) at the time; claiming FR to be the game's official setting helped with this.

2. TSR hadn't yet produced/released the string of new settings that would ultimately become 2e's hallmark. I rather suspect that asking this same person the same question in, say, 1996 might have got you a completely different and much less definite answer.
 

Ovarwa

Explorer
NO! Ignoring non-core (I heart Rogue's Gallery!), you have the perfect run from 1977 through October 1985.

MM
PHB
DMG
DnD
FF
MM2
L&L (title is worse, and not new, but still doesn't suck, because it's DnD)
OA

Then, everything that sucked.
UA
DSG
WSG
MotP
DLA
GHA


See? It works perfectly. Oriental Adventures is THE dividing line. OA isn't perfect, but it was really good (esp. for its time).
You are far more generous than I! For me, DnD is the dividing line, after which the descent begins. FF wasn't bad, just lackluster. Eg, colored frogs of doom? Not as cool as colored dragons, not as iconic as demons or devils...

Just me.

(I prefer drakobolds to canikobolds, fwiw. Older is often not better.)

Anyway,

Ken
 

lowkey13

I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
You are far more generous than I! For me, DnD is the dividing line, after which the descent begins. FF wasn't bad, just lackluster. Eg, colored frogs of doom? Not as cool as colored dragons, not as iconic as demons or devils...

Just me.

(I prefer drakobolds to canikobolds, fwiw. Older is often not better.)

Anyway,

Ken
In all fairness, when people think of me, the first word they think of is generous!

I can definitely see that (the core three plus Deities and Demigods is, arguably, the awesomest set ever), but while Fiend Folio is definitely uneven (CARBUNCLE? BLINDHEIM??? A friggin' UNICORN RABBIT???????) it also contained some of the most interesting stuff, including the Gith, that weird flying head with the guts, the sons of kyuss, death knights, the slaad, and the first appearance of the Drow in an official hardcover in the way they are supposed to be- as adversarial monsters.
 

digitalelf

Explorer
I rather suspect that asking this same person the same question in, say, 1996 might have got you a completely different and much less definite answer.
I've noted elsewhere (on other forums), that these quotes from Jeff Grubb disappeared when he left TSR in 1994; just one year after the release of the 2nd edition Forgotten Realms revised boxed set.

Here is the quote from that boxed set:
Jeff Grubb said:
These articles that the Realms were suggested as a basis for an AD&D campaign, and eventually as the home for the AD&D® 2nd Edition game.
I love how he says "A campaign setting for AD&D" to "The home for AD&D 2nd edition".

But regardless, that is the last time that I could find that he or anyone else ever mentioned that the Forgotten Realms or any other setting were "official homes" of 2nd edition.

So, if it was, it didn't last long.
 

Voadam

Adventurer
Githzerai have even been jerks to other Githzerai from the beginning
Fiend Folio p. 45 said:
They have the same sort of political organisation as have the githyanki and are ruled by an undying wizard-king said to be of 16th/23rd level of fighting/magic-use who prevents githzerai progression beyond the 9th level of experience.
 

Advertisement

Top