Have Githzerai always been jerks?

lowkey13

I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
Dang, that escalated fast. I'm just gonna go with what appears to be the consensus view in this thread: The githzerai and the slaadi are neither best buddies nor engaged in a war of mutual genocide, but rather follow a policy of "You don't bother us and we won't bother you."

My personal take is that the slaadi are barely even aware of githzerai citadels; the citadels are bastions of law and the slaadi are beings of primordial chaos. To slaadi, a citadel seems like a dead zone in Limbo, empty and sterile, and they instinctively avoid it. The githzerai are well aware of the slaadi, but see no reason to pick fights with them. Chaos frogs are just part of the landscape.
The last bit is actually in accord with the little bit of lore in the (ugh) Manual of the Planes, which specifies that the slaad prefer the chaos to the stable areas under the control of the githzerai.

I resent being made to look this up in the MotP, by the way. Just sayin'. It's part of my "Nothing post-Oriental Adventures" pact.
 

neogod22

Explorer
Yeah, actually, that is the case.

Based on EVERY BIT OF INFORMATION IN 1e. I mean, you can CAPITALIZE SLAADI, but it doesn't change the text.

Again, you can run it like you want, but every single source, from Fiend Folio to Manual of the Planes, says the same thing.

They "exist in relative peace". Thanks!

EDIT- you might also need to unlearn lore you picked up from later editions in order to understand this. For example, there is nothing in the Fiend Folio, or 1e, about how the Githzerai disregard the safety of every being in the multiverse. The amount of information about the Gith in 1e is fairly minimal.
That's fine if you're running 1e and want to not pay attention to the evolution of the D&D universe. But the majority of people playing the game play 5e, and should focus on updated relevant information.
 

lowkey13

I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
That's fine if you're running 1e and want to not pay attention to the evolution of the D&D universe. But the majority of people playing the game play 5e, and should focus on updated relevant information.
Just ... stop. What, did you figure out the 3e thing yet?
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen
EDIT- you might also need to unlearn lore you picked up from later editions in order to understand this. For example, there is nothing in the Fiend Folio, or 1e, about how the Githzerai disregard the safety of every being in the multiverse. The amount of information about the Gith in 1e is fairly minimal.
This is good advice any time you transition from one edition to another. Treat each edition as its own, independent game, with its own lore and mechanics, and you will likely have a better experience than you will if you carry over assumptions from other editions.
 

lowkey13

I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
This is good advice any time you transition from one edition to another. Treat each edition as its own, independent game, with its own lore and mechanics, and you will likely have a better experience than you will if you carry over assumptions from other editions.
Yes; but sometimes, you are running a particular edition in a different way.

For example, I run 5e in a classic Greyhawk sandbox with 1e-style lore and cosmology, with occasional 5e frills (I did add some of the Volo's lore, because it was cool and interesting). But I know in my head, for the most part, which parts I am taking from which edition.

Well, except that I'm getting older, and everything kind of blends together in a great big undifferentiated GygaxianMearls slushie, with dog and draconic kobolds holding hands and singing Kumbayah.
 

neogod22

Explorer
This is good advice any time you transition from one edition to another. Treat each edition as its own, independent game, with its own lore and mechanics, and you will likely have a better experience than you will if you carry over assumptions from other editions.
You could, but D&D actually have a timeline, and every edition starts and ends with a major event that changes the shape of the settings as a whole. I think the Time of Troubles ended 1st edition and started 2nd. Vecna becoming a greater God ended 2nd edition and started 3rd. Mystra's death and the spell plague started 4th, and her resurrection started 5th.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen
Yes; but sometimes, you are running a particular edition in a different way.

For example, I run 5e in a classic Greyhawk sandbox with 1e-style lore and cosmology, with occasional 5e frills (I did add some of the Volo's lore, because it was cool and interesting). But I know in my head, for the most part, which parts I am taking from which edition.
Oh, for sure! If you’re intentionally taking parts you like from each game, that’s a very different story than if you just treat them all as updates to the same game.

Well, except that I'm getting older, and everything kind of blends together in a great big undifferentiated GygaxianMearls slushie, with dog and draconic kobolds holding hands and singing Kumbayah.
And I’m just over here like “you know what’d be cool? If kobolds were like rats!”
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen
You could, but D&D actually have a timeline, and every edition starts and ends with a major event that changes the shape of the settings as a whole. I think the Time of Troubles ended 1st edition and started 2nd. Vecna becoming a greater God ended 2nd edition and started 3rd. Mystra's death and the spell plague started 4th, and her resurrection started 5th.
It sounds like you’re talking specifically about Forgotten Realms. Forgotten Realms does indeed have a continuity that spans across the editions. But D&D’s lore is not limited to FR, and the FR continuity is not limited to D&D.
 

lowkey13

I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
And we are limited to that one source, because.... why, exactly?
Because that's what I was discussing- the origin of the gith and 1e.

If you want to talk about later expansions, knock yourself out. Different people have put all sorts of different glosses on things, and you can pick and choose what you want based on your setting, cosmology, and edition.
 

lowkey13

I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
Oh, for sure! If you’re intentionally taking parts you like from each game, that’s a very different story than if you just treat them all as updates to the same game.


And I’m just over here like “you know what’d be cool? If kobolds were like rats!”
Wouldn't that make them skaven?

Man, I can't even get my TTFRPGs straight anymore, let alone my editions!
 

jasper

Rotten DM
They co-exist. But they will fight to death over the last fudge sickle in the Limbo's ice cream truck!
 

neogod22

Explorer
It sounds like you’re talking specifically about Forgotten Realms. Forgotten Realms does indeed have a continuity that spans across the editions. But D&D’s lore is not limited to FR, and the FR continuity is not limited to D&D.
I know, but FR is the living world. In 1st edition it was Greyhawk, but they really haven't updated any other world, mostly just reset them if they do come out. So you can really look at FR as the main world. It would be nice if they updated everything, and they may eventually do that since they updated Eborron. I personally would rather play Dark Sun or Ravneloft (I hated they reset). But it looks like WotC is only focusing on 1 world, but may put the others out as unsupported suppliments.
 

jasper

Rotten DM
That's fine if you're running 1e and want to not pay attention to the evolution of the D&D universe. But the majority of people playing the game play 5e, and should focus on updated relevant information.
ahhahahhahahahaahhaahhahaha
lol lol lol lol lol lol
Lore only counts if I have the book and have accepted it into my campaign. lowkey13 is slightly scummy since he allows the Oriental book. I took a read at and tossed on my shelf. Never bought Manuel of Planes because it screamed cash grab. There is only the PHB for players. There is only monster manuals and DMG for DMs. The rest of you are doing bad wrong no fun. :)
 

lowkey13

I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
ahhahahhahahahaahhaahhahaha
lol lol lol lol lol lol
Lore only counts if I have the book and have accepted it into my campaign. lowkey13 is slightly scummy since he allows the Oriental book. I took a read at and tossed on my shelf. Never bought Manuel of Planes because it screamed cash grab. There is only the PHB for players. There is only monster manuals and DMG for DMs. The rest of you are doing bad wrong no fun. :)
Hey- OA is, arguably, the last good 1e book!*

I mean, c'mon, it's better than the flaming dumpster fire that is Unearthed Arcana.


*Substance. No comment about the binding. It does make for a nice, loose-leaf notebook. Ahem.
 

neogod22

Explorer
Hey. Don't make it personal!
Just ... stop. What, did you figure out the 3e thing yet?
I can always tell on these sites the ppl who always have to have the last word, and I will literally will keep trolling you everytime you respond, just to drive you crazy.
 
Hey- OA is, arguably, the last good 1e book!*
I mean, c'mon, it's better than the flaming dumpster fire that is Unearthed Arcana.
I think it may have been CN. Or LN.
Whatever, it's dumpster was on fire, too.

If we're willing to let FF slide, I'd nominate MMII as the last good 1e book.
 
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lowkey13

I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
I think it may have been CN. Or LN.
Whatever, it's dumpster was on fire, too.

If we're willing to let FF slide, I'd nominate MMII as the last good 1e book.
NO! Ignoring non-core (I heart Rogue's Gallery!), you have the perfect run from 1977 through October 1985.

MM
PHB
DMG
DnD
FF
MM2
L&L (title is worse, and not new, but still doesn't suck, because it's DnD)
OA

Then, everything that sucked.
UA
DSG
WSG
MotP
DLA
GHA


See? It works perfectly. Oriental Adventures is THE dividing line. OA isn't perfect, but it was really good (esp. for its time).
 

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