Have some books become 'definitive'?

[Storm Raven]

The paladin's charisma was 24 (+7), at what 13th level in that module, doubled. Touch attacks with a power enabled do not provoke an AOO, unarmed melee attacks do without the appropriate feats.

A 13th level Paladin didn't have any trouble dealing with an opponent who was designed to be the climax of an adventure aimed at 10th level characters. And you are surprised by this? You blame it on the supplement?

 

[Nightfall]

The paladin in my old campaign did it like clockwork.

Mm well one exception. All I'm saying is that Sacred Journey is a 4th level paladin spell...and a 13 level paladin CAN have access to it. (Though having a scroll of it seems pretty cheap to me.) Dink, in any case seems to me that it was a weak vampire to begin with for a 13 level paladin to face off against. Even without the benefit of Sacred Journey.

Carn,

To each his own. Personally I can't help but wonder why there aren't more illusionist using Shadow Strike and Animate Shadow combos against monsters. (That or Shadow Twin.)

 

[Numion]

A 13th level Paladin didn't have any trouble dealing with an opponent who was designed to be the climax of an adventure aimed at 10th level characters. And you are surprised by this? You blame it on the supplement?

The module begins at level 10. Obviously characters are supposed to gain 2-3 levels during each of the adventure path modules, and thus PCs aren't level 10 at the end of the adventure, where they meet the final opponent.

SPOILERS FOR HEART OF THE NIGHTFANG SPIRE

The vampire in question is CR15, which should be 'very difficult' for 13th level group according to the DMG. Hardly trivial, as it was made by the RR spell.

 

[Nightfall]

Maybe so but seems to me that it's the DM'S job to see about uses of spells. I mean what if it was a wizard casting disintergrate? Seems to me then if you ban ONE spell on a lucky break or good use by the player, shouldn't justify banning the book out right.

 

[Psion]

All I'm saying is that Sacred Journey is a 4th level paladin spell...and a 13 level paladin CAN have access to it.

Dispel evil is a 4th level paladin spell, too... and a 6th level cleric spell. And pretty potent all by itself... a great spell of choice against the defenses of any "evil wizard" type I would throw against the players.

I think if you are under the impression that a 4th level paladin spell is supposed to be equivalent to a 4th level cleric or wizard spell, you need to think again.

At any rate, so what? This will hardly be the first spell that people disagree about the power level on (BoEM II's Gem spell, I am looking at you...) You don't like it, don't use. Or change the level. I hardly see a great portion of spells in the R&R as abusive, and think those who do are making a mountain out of a molehill.

I have much more problems with spells that convert unwilling targets to worship of your deity...

 

[Nightfall]

Psion,

True but that's a flavor issue for you versus me. Personally I plead "No contest." in the matter of Convert. (Course again add it works better in a political game since it seems to work better when you can talk for 8 hours straight...) As for my own take of Sacred Journey, well you know I like it. (Though I'll be tad more wary of using undead when it's involved. Or at least against undead with at least 15 HD. )

 

[Carnifex]

Maybe so but seems to me that it's the DM'S job to see about uses of spells. I mean what if it was a wizard casting disintergrate? Seems to me then if you ban ONE spell on a lucky break or good use by the player, shouldn't justify banning the book out right.

Disintegrate needs a roll to hit gives a save though. Hitting a vampire with a touch attack dealing that much damage isn't hard, especially since the paladin will normally want to be in H-T-H anyway.

I've heard problems about this spell before on these boards, and I'm sure I saw something about it in a story hour where they promptly banned it after a killer touch attack by the paladin. It's that use of the spell which seems to be the particular problem.

As to why more illusionists aren't using shadow strike/ animate shadow combos, well for most people the problem is that the book isn't balanced enough that a DM will let them use it. I look at spells on a case-by-case basis when my players ask to eb allowed to use them, but some DM's just say no to anything from a particular book.