Have the third-party d20 publishers failed?

[Belen]

Well, obviously, if you don't know about something you can't buy it. But being on EN World, reading the publisher forum, paying attention to the front page news, and reading reviews is a great way to learn about some of the small comapnies who put out some really good product.

Quite true. All though this helps me, it does nothing to help the large majority out there. Thus, keeping those small publishers..well...small.

 

[Krug]

How is this for a radical idea? A website that charges a subscription fee and allows you to view or download a number of PDFs based on subscription price. Seems to me this allows a publisher to get paid a percentage of that subscription fee, provides a marketing tool to publishers, and gives customers a chance to test unknown or small publishers without getting burned by too many bad products.

Something similar has been done before. Direkobold.com. They stopped doing it after a while.

 

[Crothian]

Quite true. All though this helps me, it does nothing to help the large majority out there. Thus, keeping those small publishers..well...small.

Well, with the ENnies and other marketing the word slowly spreads. Some of the small publishers also hadve taken out an add in either Dragon or Dungeon. So, tell your friends about us!!

 

[Belen]

Something similar has been done before. Direkobold.com. They stopped doing it after a while.

Never heard of them. I think it would have to be one of the big players, such as Monte or Pramas etc in order to get it to enough people to become viable. Otherwise, it remains fringe.

 

[Mark]

So you use PDFs much?

I have three published adventures available, and two of them are free.

http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=301

http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=2500

http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=2781

I ask again...

 

[Mouseferatu]

I honestly believe that a d20 recession/ depression will soon hit the market. Most likely this will occur not long after Complete Adventurer as no new edition will exist to paper over the cracks and artificially keep players buying books. Thus, WOTC is looking to devote resources to GMs.

Actually, I'm firmly of the opinion that the D20 recession has already hit. It's one of the reasons modules don't sell and so many companies are going under or switching out of D20. (Not, by any means, the only reason, but part of it.) Even the successful companies aren't selling numbers the way they used to, and some companies are offering less money than they were a year or two ago for the same jobs.

I've heard really good things about the numbers at this year's GenCon for some of the major publishers. I'm hoping this, plus the departure of several companies (even if they include some I wish had remained) indicates the start of an upswing. But I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Belen]

Actually, I'm firmly of the opinion that the D20 recession has already hit. It's one of the reasons modules don't sell and so many companies are going under or switching out of D20. (Not, by any means, the only reason, but part of it.) Even the successful companies aren't selling numbers the way they used to, and some companies are offering less money than they were a year or two ago for the same jobs.

I've heard really good things about the numbers at this year's GenCon for some of the major publishers. I'm hoping this, plus the departure of several companies (even if they include some I wish had remained) indicates the start of an upswing. But I'm not holding my breath.

I wish that were apparent from my point of view. It seems worse now.

Maybe ENWorld should cull review of publishers that are no longer active or even archive them. It would make life easier.

 

[Krug]

Besides Malhavoc and Necromancer, you might want to check out modules from
Open World Press and if you're into d20 Modern, stuff from 12 to Midnight (http://www.rpgnow.com/default.php?manufacturers_id=441). Their adventure Last Rites has scored 5 out of 5 for all its reviews on RPGNow so far, and Innana's Kiss has also received rave reviews.

 

[Vigilance]

Again, I never heard about RPGobjects before this thread, or it may have been in some jumbled ENWorld news at some point, but I tend to tune out unrecognized publishers. How can GMs or anyone buy the matetial if no one knows it exists?

I am sure you guys make great products, yet it is difficult to scan through 50 different publishers and several hundred different products and know what to get or even realize that it exists.

This overabundance is a industry failure to a large degree.

Well as for never having heard of us, we primarily make d20 Modern products. If you don't play that game or spend a lot of time in the d20 forum you probably won't have heard of us.

However we have gotten a lot of great reviews and been nominated for 6 Ennies in the last two years, so it seems like a reasonably active ENWorlder would have heard of us.

As for an overabundance of companies being an "industry fault" and "leading the industry to doom"...

Well in the first place there isn't a membership card to start a small business. Your comments about how in most businesses you prove you can make money is just balderdash.

People open small businesses with their own money all the time.

And most of those businesses will fail.

However some grow and thrive. Its called the american way. Apple was started in a garage by some buys welding circuit boards. By your standards, since they couldn't prove their ability to make money, someone should have stopped them.

RPG companies are failing, and they are succeeding too.

It isnt the market's fault and it doesn't mean that everyone below the success level of Green Ronin or Mongoose is "one of those d20 companies that are failing".

Also a heads up on another aspect of your post- if you think the SATURATION is bad- that isnt the fault of the small publishers.

Compare the number of products made yearly by Green Ronin, Mongoose, and WOTC to the products made by smaller publishers.

RPGOjects averages 4-6 print books ayear. But to listen to some people talk every small publisher that goes under is a gleeful event and good for the marketplace.

Chuck

 

[broghammerj]

Im glad you can afford to use those numbers in a completely arbitrary fashion lol.

It was to illustrate a point.

In other words, if I make a sourcebook, GMs are the most likely to buy it, but some players will buy it too.

If I make an adventure, GMs are likely to buy it, but players of course will not.

That means more potential customers for the sourcebook!

Are we just beating our heads against a wall here?

No you're not beating your head into the wall. I hear you. I already know sourcebooks are MORE PROFITABLE than adventures. That is drastically different than saying adventures can't make a profit. I am not asking any small RPG companies to throw themselves into martyrdom by undertaking unprofitable ventures. Someone needs to fill the adventure market, if that's WOTC then so be it.

I'm just a customer who's sick of non-innovative source books. Now I would argue that RPGO has done some very innovative things with Darwins World and Blood and etc lines. Your products seems to fill niches in the d20 market. According to many, Darwins World covers what people have wanted in a post apocalyptic world ala old school Gamma World. Blood and "Fill in the Blank" serve a very underserved D20 Modern crowd.

Other companies have not been so intelligent, creating the same old same old splatbooks.

My next purchase is will probably be Darwins World since the setting looks damn cool. One of the big reasons is that you've got some adventures to support it because I certainly don't have time to write things like the good ol days.

Also a heads up on another aspect of your post- if you think the SATURATION is bad- that isnt the fault of the small publishers.

I agree with this to some extent. WOTC appears to be going down the prim rose path that TSR did. Here's your class/race/prestige class/etc books all over again

I wave the white flag of truce on this thread. I thought things took a sour turn in our discussion and for that I apologize.

Edited for the removal of snide comments and lack of personal judgement.