Fiery James
First Post
Sunderstone said:
Just wondering: were you aware of Plague of Dreams and Siege on Ebonring Keep? Also, if there were more adventures for AU out, would you reconsider looking into AU?
- James
Last edited:
Have the third-party d20 publishers failed?
- Thread starter Belen
- Start date
Just wondering: were you aware of Plague of Dreams and Siege on Ebonring Keep? Also, if there were more adventures for AU out, would you reconsider looking into AU?
- James
Sunderstone
First Post
Ed Cha said:
Maybe I'm way off but I thought most DMs already do this, especially the DMs who work within a different setting than the module and have to convert it all to their setting. Besides a setting conversion, I think most DMs already alter the content to suit their players and styles. Id like to think most DMs do this but as you say it depends on the person.
I dont know about ALOT of poorly produced modules as my interests are only in a few d20 brands and I really havent seen that many bad adventures. Your comment in a way kind of proves that having more modules can only enhance the game being that most have something salvageable to a good DM. Then there are those DMs who may prefer that bad module over others and in their opinion it may not be a bad module at all, which is a good thing to the adventure market.Ed Cha said:
As you say it depends on the person.
Sunderstone
First Post
Yes and Yes.Fiery James said:
I still would like to see more module support for AU. Spending the money on sourcebooks isnt that bad when theres alot of adventure support for the setting. Maybe I will have time to craft an adventure eventually, or maybe Ill want to use premade modules and alter some things to my party's particular style of play.
I can even see converting NeMoren's Vault (excellent by the way) to a setting like AU. New modules can never hurt.
Monte Cook and Bruce Cordell have always been among my favorite designers so AU almost has me already, another nudge would win me.
Last edited:
Pramas
Explorer
JoeGKushner said:
Exactly so. Of our Mythic Vistas line of campaign settings, Mindshadows is the worst selling one. It melds southeast Asian flavor with psionics and martial arts to create what is (IMO) a very interesting setting. It seems "too different" for the average D&D fan though. Atlas had a similar experience with Nyambe, which was the first serious attempt to do a fantasy African setting.
Of course, this cuts both ways. In Book of the Righteous, for instance, the cosmology was built off several core assumptions of the D&D paradigm to make it easy to use for the average GM. The latest review lambasts it for not being creative enough. I'll tell you right now that if BoTR had thrown away every D&D assumption and built up a totally unique cosmology instead (which we certainly could have done), it wouldn't have sold nearly as well.
Imagicka
Explorer
Greetings...
When I first got involved in D&D, and Roleplaying Games, I was very fortunate to start with a group of semi-experienced players and a very intelligent, creative player took me in and showed me the ropes and took me under his wing. As such, I didn't have a lot of 'bumbling around' experiences that people have in regards to D&D and RPGs.
I never played any D&D modules that TSR put out, most were all homemade campaigns that a handful of DMs that we would game with would make. When I finally did play TSR modules, I was sorely disappointed. They were little more than (I thought) randomly placed rooms with little rhyme nor reason to why things were the way they were. I drove the DM who was running the campaign insane with questions like: "Well, if there is a chimera in this sealed room here, what does he eat? Where does he get his drinking water from?"
But now, everyone has the internet...everyone has access to those video games which are called...*cough* Roleplaying Games. Not to mention, you have one of the grandfather of fantasy literature, and the grandfather of roleplaying games now with nice shiny new coats of paint. D&D 3.0/3.5 and the LotR movies is no doubt enticing new players to join our wicked ranks. But they have a wealth of imagination spurring resources that we never had. I'm waiting for all the people to start jumping onto the Medieval Fantasy bandwagon and start pumping out sword and sorcery movies now that LotR has hopefully done for us what Star Wars did in the late 70's.
As for third party publishers and supplements. Well, I enjoy getting my hands on and reading anything and everything. Why? Because even bad supplements help to spur my imagination. As a gamer and DM who writes his own material, when I read something, and I don't like it, I often say "Well, that's not good...the concept is nice, but this is how I would have done it." After all, that's how most of us GMs who have their own game world settings start off. We don't like the Vancian (Fire & Forget) magic system of D&D, so we change it...we don't like the game world, and think that Greyhawk is a little boring, or that Forgotten Realms has a little too much magic, or that things just aren't 'logically' designed.
But as for campaign and modules. I see them around here and there. But yes, there aren't a lot of them out there. But I don't think that modules were always a big seller, even in the old days. I know, that as the president of a University roleplaying club, I met a lot of players/DMs, and most of them never had modules. Those people who did have a couple donated them to the club. But it wasn't a lot. Nowadays, with all the wealth of fiction and video games and movies, I think that there would be even less of a demand for modules, since people would be more inclined to create their own even if they are just starting out roleplaying.
But those are modules, and not so much supplements, worlds, and alternate rules and systems that are the bulk of what is put out by third party publishers. Which I think is the way it should be. When I read something it will spark and idea of a campaign. Rarely have I read a module where it fit into my campaign world. Therein lies the problem. How can you make a module that is not influenced by the game-world setting? How much magic do you put into it? Does the magic and treasure, and ultimately what the characters take out of the module with them as booty...does this mesh with the rest of the game world? Is it going to unbalance things? After all, you don't want your party who barely have two magical items to rub together amongst them all to go into a module and walk out with a dragon's horde of holy avengers for everyone, and extras for rainy days.
As for 'entry level' games/systems. I don't know of any game that could be considered entry level. Lots of people abandoned D&D because it was too complicated. A lot of people get into D&D because it is the common game. Or at least when I started playing. What about now? I know that 10-14 years ago, when White-Wolf was the hot new kid in town, no one was getting into D&D. I would even go as far as to say that Vampire:tM helped keep RPing alive, when all sorts of companies were going under, including TSR. How much of the market does D&D hold? I won't look for a statistic, or say what I think that percentage is...(*grins at Joshua Dyal*) but I'm pretty sure we can all agree that it's pretty big. Even with all the RPGs that are still around. LARPing is the new big thing now, and White-Wolf's games are still pretty popular. I know lots of players who LARP and play Vampire/Mage/White-Wolf who won't even touch D&D. I'm sure it won't be long before WotC puts out a set of LARPing rules for D&D.
When I first got involved in D&D, and Roleplaying Games, I was very fortunate to start with a group of semi-experienced players and a very intelligent, creative player took me in and showed me the ropes and took me under his wing. As such, I didn't have a lot of 'bumbling around' experiences that people have in regards to D&D and RPGs.
I never played any D&D modules that TSR put out, most were all homemade campaigns that a handful of DMs that we would game with would make. When I finally did play TSR modules, I was sorely disappointed. They were little more than (I thought) randomly placed rooms with little rhyme nor reason to why things were the way they were. I drove the DM who was running the campaign insane with questions like: "Well, if there is a chimera in this sealed room here, what does he eat? Where does he get his drinking water from?"
Ahh, but look at the wealth of imagination inspiring resources that are out there. Now, I don't know how old you are, but I am one of those 2nd Generation D&Ders, and I shall assume you are as well. I didn't play the original white-box book D&D...but got into AD&D, and AD&D2. What was there around there in regards to movies and books? What resources were there to network and communicate with other RPGers? Back in the late 70's and 80's...not much. Even in the late 90's...when 'internet' wasn't a common term...there was the Usenet. But most gamers I knew weren't on the internet. (Ahh, those great and heady days of rec.games.frp)BelenUmeria said:
But now, everyone has the internet...everyone has access to those video games which are called...*cough* Roleplaying Games. Not to mention, you have one of the grandfather of fantasy literature, and the grandfather of roleplaying games now with nice shiny new coats of paint. D&D 3.0/3.5 and the LotR movies is no doubt enticing new players to join our wicked ranks. But they have a wealth of imagination spurring resources that we never had. I'm waiting for all the people to start jumping onto the Medieval Fantasy bandwagon and start pumping out sword and sorcery movies now that LotR has hopefully done for us what Star Wars did in the late 70's.
As for third party publishers and supplements. Well, I enjoy getting my hands on and reading anything and everything. Why? Because even bad supplements help to spur my imagination. As a gamer and DM who writes his own material, when I read something, and I don't like it, I often say "Well, that's not good...the concept is nice, but this is how I would have done it." After all, that's how most of us GMs who have their own game world settings start off. We don't like the Vancian (Fire & Forget) magic system of D&D, so we change it...we don't like the game world, and think that Greyhawk is a little boring, or that Forgotten Realms has a little too much magic, or that things just aren't 'logically' designed.
But as for campaign and modules. I see them around here and there. But yes, there aren't a lot of them out there. But I don't think that modules were always a big seller, even in the old days. I know, that as the president of a University roleplaying club, I met a lot of players/DMs, and most of them never had modules. Those people who did have a couple donated them to the club. But it wasn't a lot. Nowadays, with all the wealth of fiction and video games and movies, I think that there would be even less of a demand for modules, since people would be more inclined to create their own even if they are just starting out roleplaying.
But those are modules, and not so much supplements, worlds, and alternate rules and systems that are the bulk of what is put out by third party publishers. Which I think is the way it should be. When I read something it will spark and idea of a campaign. Rarely have I read a module where it fit into my campaign world. Therein lies the problem. How can you make a module that is not influenced by the game-world setting? How much magic do you put into it? Does the magic and treasure, and ultimately what the characters take out of the module with them as booty...does this mesh with the rest of the game world? Is it going to unbalance things? After all, you don't want your party who barely have two magical items to rub together amongst them all to go into a module and walk out with a dragon's horde of holy avengers for everyone, and extras for rainy days.
As for 'entry level' games/systems. I don't know of any game that could be considered entry level. Lots of people abandoned D&D because it was too complicated. A lot of people get into D&D because it is the common game. Or at least when I started playing. What about now? I know that 10-14 years ago, when White-Wolf was the hot new kid in town, no one was getting into D&D. I would even go as far as to say that Vampire:tM helped keep RPing alive, when all sorts of companies were going under, including TSR. How much of the market does D&D hold? I won't look for a statistic, or say what I think that percentage is...(*grins at Joshua Dyal*) but I'm pretty sure we can all agree that it's pretty big. Even with all the RPGs that are still around. LARPing is the new big thing now, and White-Wolf's games are still pretty popular. I know lots of players who LARP and play Vampire/Mage/White-Wolf who won't even touch D&D. I'm sure it won't be long before WotC puts out a set of LARPing rules for D&D.
Pramas said:
Out of curiosity, how difficult is it to file off the serial numbers from the gods in the book and substitute, for instance, the FR pantheon? I see the book in the store quite often and have thumbed through it several times, it's a very pretty and tempting book, but I have enough books and supplements creaking my shelves that rarely get used that I haven't been willing to take the risk with it.
kitsune9
Adventurer
Kind of Sad Though....
Kind of sad too.
I read Mindshadows and just thought it was an awesome setting. Not only extremely original, but well-written, innovative, and it takes the tired concepts of the PH and makes something new out of it. But...business is what business does. Hopefully consumer taste will pick up for something more exotic and that Green Ronin will write something again. 
Pramas said:
Kind of sad too.
I read Mindshadows and just thought it was an awesome setting. Not only extremely original, but well-written, innovative, and it takes the tired concepts of the PH and makes something new out of it. But...business is what business does. Hopefully consumer taste will pick up for something more exotic and that Green Ronin will write something again. It always scares me to hear how many publishers lie close to oblivion.
I wish I knew which ones were clsoer, because I like to support my favorite companies.
There is so much coming out, it requires a lot of decision making on where to spend ones money nowadays... That would definitely be a factor with me.
Razuur
I wish I knew which ones were clsoer, because I like to support my favorite companies.
There is so much coming out, it requires a lot of decision making on where to spend ones money nowadays... That would definitely be a factor with me.
Razuur
buzz
Adventurer
A few questions:
1. Why is the sole determinant of third-party d20 publishers having "failed" whether they produce D&D adventure modules?
2. Why is the success or failure of d20 and/or the nurturing of the next generation of D&D DMs all being laid at the feet of the third-party d20 publishers? Isn't this primarily WotC's responsibility, seeing as they have the most vested interest in the continued health of the D&D fan community? That said, why is the fact that WotC released a whole series of adventure path modules, a couple of "mega-modules" (RttToEE, CotSQ), free adventures on their Web site every month, 3-4 adventures via Dungeon every month written by many esteemed designers, and now are releasing a path of modules for Eberron, not to mention a new Basic Set... being totally ignored?
3. When was it determined that third-party publishers *weren't* releasing modules anymore? Sure, some publshers are dropping out, but there are still companies out there producing them, e.g., Necromancer Games, Goodman Games, others I'm probably forgetting, and a host of PDF publishers.
4. Why is "Well, I didn't know about that" a valid excuse for the claim of these publishers being "failures"? Why should we assume that the average geeky 15-year-old won't have the presence of mind to go to http://www.google.com and do a search for "D&D adventures"?
5. Why should it be assumed that there is any direct link whatsoever between lots of third-party modules being available and the quality of a nascent DM's gamemsatering skills? What do the two of these have to do with each other?
Overall, I'm glad that publishers have chimed in to reveal some of the flaws in the logic of this thread's premise.
As for me, I never bought many modules as a kid, and I'm a freaking great GM. I made up my own adventures and learned as I went. If anything, it's other GMs that have taught me the most about the GM craft, not published adventures.
If there was to be a resurgence of module publishing, it'd just be that much more product that I don't really have much use for. I already subscribe to Dungeon. Between that and the modules I've bought (some Atlas, the WotC mega-modules, the adventure path, Eberron adventures) and the ones I've won at Gamedays, I already have more adventures than I could hope to run in a lifetime. Most of them just gather dust on my shelf.
If anything, I lean more towards d20 products that do interesting things with the system, e.g., The Psychic's Handbook, Grim Tales, RPGObject's Blood series, TGM's d20M books, etc. And, actually, the d20 product I'm most in love with right now is Goodman Games' Power Gamer's 3.5 Warrior Strategy Guide. Imagine, a book that helps me make better use of *product I already own*. Booyah!
1. Why is the sole determinant of third-party d20 publishers having "failed" whether they produce D&D adventure modules?
2. Why is the success or failure of d20 and/or the nurturing of the next generation of D&D DMs all being laid at the feet of the third-party d20 publishers? Isn't this primarily WotC's responsibility, seeing as they have the most vested interest in the continued health of the D&D fan community? That said, why is the fact that WotC released a whole series of adventure path modules, a couple of "mega-modules" (RttToEE, CotSQ), free adventures on their Web site every month, 3-4 adventures via Dungeon every month written by many esteemed designers, and now are releasing a path of modules for Eberron, not to mention a new Basic Set... being totally ignored?
3. When was it determined that third-party publishers *weren't* releasing modules anymore? Sure, some publshers are dropping out, but there are still companies out there producing them, e.g., Necromancer Games, Goodman Games, others I'm probably forgetting, and a host of PDF publishers.
4. Why is "Well, I didn't know about that" a valid excuse for the claim of these publishers being "failures"? Why should we assume that the average geeky 15-year-old won't have the presence of mind to go to http://www.google.com and do a search for "D&D adventures"?
5. Why should it be assumed that there is any direct link whatsoever between lots of third-party modules being available and the quality of a nascent DM's gamemsatering skills? What do the two of these have to do with each other?
Overall, I'm glad that publishers have chimed in to reveal some of the flaws in the logic of this thread's premise.
As for me, I never bought many modules as a kid, and I'm a freaking great GM.
I made up my own adventures and learned as I went. If anything, it's other GMs that have taught me the most about the GM craft, not published adventures.If there was to be a resurgence of module publishing, it'd just be that much more product that I don't really have much use for. I already subscribe to Dungeon. Between that and the modules I've bought (some Atlas, the WotC mega-modules, the adventure path, Eberron adventures) and the ones I've won at Gamedays, I already have more adventures than I could hope to run in a lifetime. Most of them just gather dust on my shelf.
If anything, I lean more towards d20 products that do interesting things with the system, e.g., The Psychic's Handbook, Grim Tales, RPGObject's Blood series, TGM's d20M books, etc. And, actually, the d20 product I'm most in love with right now is Goodman Games' Power Gamer's 3.5 Warrior Strategy Guide. Imagine, a book that helps me make better use of *product I already own*. Booyah!
Similar Threads
