Have we lost the dungeon?

[megamania]

The concept of the dungeon is fun but not realistic to me. When I do place the group through a "dungeon" setting, it usually an old ruin or a farse like my "The World Below" from Strikeforce: Morituri.

However- there will always be a dungeon somewhere in my games. Now they are only a part of it not the ENTIRE adventure.

 

[Celebrim]

Count me among the dungeoneers as well, although my dungeons have changed alot since the time when I was 12. Back then, dungeons were to me excuses to put as many monsters in one area as possible.

Actually, my post #1 on this site was a rambling essay on good dungeon design based on what I'd learned over the years. If someone could fine a link to it, I'd appreciate it.

In short, dungeons should serve the needs of RP in a game that revolves around narrativist needs (which I prefer), and RP should serve the needs of dungeons if the players are are powergamers/puzzle solvers that play because they like dungeon crawling and overcoming obstacles (which is the sort of game I run when I'm doing weekly open sessions at the local game store).

To be honest, I think more words need to be spent on good dungeon design. The short essay I gave doesn't begin to cover it. There is alot to be said about designing a good dungeon and while there are several people in the industry that I think are very good at it, they haven't yet spent alot of time communicating how you go about it. In part, I think this is because they've never thought about it enough to be able to communicate it coherently.

Because 'world design' appeals more to the top down simulationist that seems to lurk in the heart of every DM, alot more time has been talking about it. In fact, there are all sorts of people out there that enjoy world design for world design's sake, with little regard at all for ever creating an actual game. In fact, I dare say that the biggest market for GURPS products comes from DM's like this.

 

[Mark]

Actually, my post #1 on this site was a rambling essay on good dungeon design based on what I'd learned over the years. If someone could fine a link to it, I'd appreciate it.

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=14005

 

[Mac Callum]

Dungeons are a great place to get some game on, and they serve some purpose in the greater world. They can be abandoned mines, or whatever. The world is OLD, and it's much easier for some tribe (of a race you've never heard of) to move into a dungeon built a thousand years ago by some ancient and long dead race they'd never heard of, and then modify it a bit. When they died out in turn, the cycle repeats itself. You get some weird ass dungeons lying around with a history like that.

If you think about it, dungeons are much more likely to be lived in and really, really old than cities are. Cities are subject to weather. Buildings burn down. None of that happens to dungeons.

My dungeons aren't completely random though. I probably wouldn't have the proverbial Ki-Rin and Balor neighbors. The dungeons make some sense for their current occupants, even if the architecture doesn't and some rooms go unused. That seems pretty standard though. I have some old 1e adventures, and that's what they're like. The monsters that are in the area are aware of each other and respond rationally. I, personally, haven't run into any truly random dungeons. Maybe I'm playing the wrong ones?

No, the dungeons are not lost. If DM's talk about campaigns now it's because the dungeons are just understood to be a part of the larger campaign. When I mention the capital city of the Zor Empire, it's understood there's a labyrinth of secret passages, sewers, and the remains of the city that came before it, layered several stories deep. If I'm telling some other DM "Oh, and in these mountains the goblins have completely run over the orcs", do I really have to point out that the Orcs riddled the mountains with tunnels, and that only half of them have been cleared and occupied by the goblins? Isn't that just assumed?

(Obviously not everyone thinks that, I know. Well, I guess your goblins are just more efficient about clearing out tunnels than my goblins. My goblins are lazy, and if the bugbear doesn't bother them, they ain't gonna do nothin' 'bout it.)

Also, as for plot, I've never, since my 1e days, gone into a dungeon without some reason. It was pretty flimsy in the beginning, and roleplaying was minimal, but there was always a princess to save or a monster to hunt down that had eaten a couple villagers. Are there people out there that on a regular basis just walked around rolling dice with no higher purpose but to see if you survive a particular encounter? Once maybe, but I bet most of them don't play D&D anymore. They just play Tekken or Diablo 100% of the time. It's easier.

Last time I checked, this game was still called D&D.

 

[Numenorean]

A quick moderately reminder - play nice, don't put words into other peoples mouths and don't disrespect other people for their opinions. We can say what we like pro or con about dungeons without making implications (veiled or otherwise) about the people who have certain preferences, can't we?

Cheers,

But ... when someone makes a snide comment and says that dungeons are a thing of the past because the market "grew up" ... LOL what do you think that means about those of us who are still fond of dungeons or use them in our current campaigns?

Thats highly insulting, not to mention not all together truthful either.

Thats why I replied as I did.

 

[Nathan P. Mahney]

My games usually enter the dungeon at some point or another - hell, my next session is going to have two! I do go to lengths to make sure that they make sense, though.

But... I'm getting the urge to run a whacked-out, random, completely 1e-style dungeon-fest. I don't want to restart the players with new characters, though, so I'm thinking... time travel. The PCs travel back in time to the days when the world operated under 1e rules, and 1e logic. Though I'm not sure whether to actually go the whole hog and use the 1e rules.

 

[MonsterMash]

I always joke that the games we play are just called "&", since there aren't any Dungeons or Dragons.

Unlike the game I'm currently playing in where we've just encountered a dragon in a dungeon!
(and I'm not ashamed to admit we ran - 3rd level PCs vs dragon can be pretty one sided and not to the PCs).

 

[Gentlegamer]

Which proves nothing and suggests very little other than the strength of brand recognition.

Exactly. It isn't D&D anymore, its d20 Fantasy.

 

[Henry]

Rule #1 of GM'ing:

Know your players!

If your players want to explore dank dungeons and underground complexes, by God give them dank dungeons and underground complexes!

If they want political intrigue, give them that! If you're not that good at what your players want, the challenge as a DM is to become better at it. And with the resources of a place like ENWorld, you CAN become better at either one.

 

[Shades of Green]

I don't know *shrug*. For me, a dungeon is just another adventure locale, as viable as a city, a forest, plains, a castle ruin, or an elemental plane. I don't understand (and have never understood) the kind of gaming philosophy which sees dungeons as the paramount example of game design - if I need one, I'll build one, but I can go for years without one. I for one am glad that D&D has evolved from the initial concept of "You can only adventure in a dungeon".

I totally agree with you. Both as a player and as a GM I've had very good dungeon adventures, very good political RP/adventures and very good wilderness adventures. Ofcourse, I use the term "dungeon" quite loosely - in the sense of an enclosed locale in which there are enemies: An Orcish wooden forterss, a deep natural cavern infested with vermin, an abanoned Dwarven mine crawlingt with Undead, a castle of an enemy noble which a thief has to infiltrate, an abandoned house now serving as a bandit camp and so on...