Have we lost the dungeon?

[Desdichado]

Well, they are wrong or at least have done a bad job of conveying their meaning. And that's yet another reason for me to never buy the DMG.

Or, they're just talking about something completely different than you are when they say dungeon. Neither is right nor wrong; they are both simply different ways of semantic labelling.

Ahh.. so you say. (snip)

I keep telling you I see your point, but you keep trying to convince me!

 

[John Morrow]

That's interesting, but how is anyone supposed to get a back-issue of The Space Gamer from 1981 to check out this article? Is there some sort of online archive?

Ebay? I got mine in 1981 but I've seen them on Ebay, including that issue. I actually recommend getting a hold of almost any The Space Gamer with an issue number in the 40s or 50s and almost any issue of Different Worlds.

(Edit: Just to set expectations, this was a two or three page article. It's packed full of great anecdotes and some still-good advice but don't expect the Holy Grail.)

In addition to that Bill (W. G.) Armintrout article, Glenn Blacow's "Aspects of Adventure Gaming" appeared in Different Worlds in October 1980, discussing gaming styles in categories that still hold up pretty well today (they are the basis of the categories Robin Laws uses in Robin's Laws). You can find that article online here:

http://www.darkshire.net/~jhkim/rpg/theory/models/blacow.html

And bear in mind that Glenn Blacow's article, like Bill Armintrout's article, discusses issues that existed well before 1980 or 1981. That means that there were people doing real role-playing and storytelling and not just dungeon crawls even back in those days.

 

[francisca]

In addition to that Bill (W. G.) Armintrout article, Glenn Blacow's "Aspects of Adventure Gaming" appeared in Different Worlds in October 1980, discussing gaming styles in categories that still hold up pretty well today (they are the basis of the categories Robin Laws uses in Robin's Laws). You can find that article online here:

GOOD GRIEF!! I had forgotten about those! I wonder if I still have that big pile my cousin gave me!

Thanks for the jog of the memory!

 

[diaglo]

That means that there were people doing real role-playing and storytelling and not just dungeon crawls even back in those days.

Hello... I'm one of them.

but we also crawled the dungeons too....

 

[John Morrow]

Hello... I'm one of them.

but we also crawled the dungeons too....

I'm not saying that you didn't or that you can't. I'm simply trying to address the perception that the vast majority of early role-playing games were primative and bound to a fairly narrow dungeon paradigm. Based on my own anecdotal evidence and observations, I don't think that's true. And I suspect that you never considered OD&D to be a straitjacket or impediment to doing those things, which I also think wasn't all that uncommon.

 

[TerraDave]

No, it was the dungeon itself. When I go back to the dungeon to reestablish what the game is about is when I start looking beyond D&D for other games.

you can have "site based encounters" in something like CoC, but I don't think that is what you really meant...

 

[diaglo]

I'm not saying that you didn't or that you can't. I'm simply trying to address the perception that the vast majority of early role-playing games were primative and bound to a fairly narrow dungeon paradigm. Based on my own anecdotal evidence and observations, I don't think that's true. And I suspect that you never considered OD&D to be a straitjacket or impediment to doing those things, which I also think wasn't all that uncommon.

exactly. my hat of Robin's labels/ not laws knows no limits.


we roleplayed as we dungeon crawled. we told stories. as did every single group i played or refereed.

 

[francisca]

I'm not saying that you didn't or that you can't. I'm simply trying to address the perception that the vast majority of early role-playing games were primative and bound to a fairly narrow dungeon paradigm. Based on my own anecdotal evidence and observations, I don't think that's true. And I suspect that you never considered OD&D to be a straitjacket or impediment to doing those things, which I also think wasn't all that uncommon.

I'm going to echo this. My cousins had an extensive role-play heavy campaign based on the white box and the judge's guild stuff prior to the release of AD&D. The insinuation that all of those who were playing D&D (or similar games) in the 70s were nothing more than a bunch of immature dungeoncrawlers is not only wrong, but insulting, and smacks of elitism.

Not that that there is anything wrong at all with dungeon crawls; I love 'em. Likewise, there is a lot to say for deep character development. But as in many things, balance is the key for me.

 

[francisca]

you can have "site based encounters" in something like CoC, but I don't think that is what you really meant...

Did the term "site based encounter" exist before the 3e DMG?

 

[diaglo]

Did the term "site based encounter" exist before the 3e DMG?

yeah. i remember it from the 80's. around 1983 or so iirc. in a Dragon or maybe Poly...