have you ever played without maps?

have you played an rpg without maps?

  • yes

    Votes: 54 91.5%
  • no

    Votes: 5 8.5%

What do you do for players who are interested in tactical decisions like position, flanking, surprise, and range?
Figure it out in my head real quick. If 2 allies are in melee against 1 opponent, they 5 ft. step to flank. If there's a spell range issue, I have already generated the starting distance and kept rough track of movement in my head. If players want to surprise the enemy I picture the situation in my haed and apply circumstance modifiers as I deem necessary to appropriate stealth/perception skill checks.

Once you understand D&D rules, you can skip a lot of things. I often don't look up a skill DC for something; if a player gets a 30, they probably made it and if they get a 2 they probably didn't. I only care about such things if the outcome is not obvious. Likewise, it's usually readily apparent whether or not it would be possible to flank an enemy or whether they're within the range of a spell. I only pull out the battlemap for complicated situations (and frankly, usually only at my players' request).

I used to be more fastidious about this sort of thing, and other DMs I've played with occasionally tried more advanced computer mapping systems and so on, but the more I've played, the more I've gotten away from it. Also, over time, my players started to trust me enough to where I'd make a guess as to whether an enemy was within movement range, and they'd agree and move on without arguing.

I'm sure I get movement "wrong" now and then, I just don't care. Every second I spend looking at a battlemap is a second not spent on describing setting, interacting with characters, or creating plot (or eating, joking, etc.). I use maps the same way I use other documents like rulebooks during a session; as little as I can get away with. I have similar opinions of world mapping. I spent a lot of time creating a crude but broad map for my world (and I'm glad I did that when I was in high school) but now I only care on a very rough level so there's no reason to do any more work.

Bottom line: I'm not a very tactical gamer. My shift in direction has resulted in less time-consuming but more entertaining battles that leave time for much deeper storytelling.
 

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(this is coming from the viewpoint of a d&d player, but i guess it can apply to any game).

have you ever played an rpg without using maps of any kind?

if so, how were things like terrain, travel time, etc., handled?

Sure, my weekly rules-light game almost never has maps. Sometimes I throw together a quick one in order for my players to visualize the overall layout ("The stable is behind the manor") but those never has some kind of measurable scale.

Terrain I simply describe appropriately; either as backdrop, or so that the players can describe how they handle it.

Travel time seldom is a problem; If I want the players to travel for two days to reach their destination, then the distance is "two days travel"; how much that is in meters and kilometers does not really matter. If you bother to handle resources (and its an advantage to rules light that you don't), they are usually spent based on time rather than distance; adventurers don't have to worry about their gas mileage.
 

What do you do for players who are interested in tactical decisions like position, flanking, surprise, and range?
Figure it out in my head real quick. If 2 allies are in melee against 1 opponent, they 5 ft. step to flank. If there's a spell range issue, I have already generated the starting distance and kept rough track of movement in my head. If players want to surprise the enemy I picture the situation in my haed and apply circumstance modifiers as I deem necessary to appropriate stealth/perception skill checks.g.

As I see it, flanking, range and spell areas can be hand-waved rather easily, as long as the players trust the DM to handle it; the one thing that you really need a tactical map for is visualizing ZOC:s and opportunity attacks. However, these are really some of the most serious time-wasters during combat, both in time they take to resolve, and the time to calculate and recalculate and recalculate your movement every time the situation shifts... If you get rid of ZOC:s and opportunity attacks, you will probably tighten up combat times seriously (and in my opinion, probably make combat more action-filled in the process).
 

Figure it out in my head real quick. If 2 allies are in melee against 1 opponent, they 5 ft. step to flank. If there's a spell range issue, I have already generated the starting distance and kept rough track of movement in my head. If players want to surprise the enemy I picture the situation in my haed and apply circumstance modifiers as I deem necessary to appropriate stealth/perception skill checks.

Two questions, then. First, how do your players know when there is a reasonable opportunity to flank? Second, if you create a "map" in your head, doesn't it make sense to sometimes use a visual representation, however crude, in order to save mental processing capacity for something else?

Once you understand D&D rules, you can skip a lot of things. I often don't look up a skill DC for something; if a player gets a 30, they probably made it and if they get a 2 they probably didn't. I only care about such things if the outcome is not obvious. Likewise, it's usually readily apparent whether or not it would be possible to flank an enemy or whether they're within the range of a spell. I only pull out the battlemap for complicated situations (and frankly, usually only at my players' request).

What about when it's not apparent?

I used to be more fastidious about this sort of thing, and other DMs I've played with occasionally tried more advanced computer mapping systems and so on, but the more I've played, the more I've gotten away from it. Also, over time, my players started to trust me enough to where I'd make a guess as to whether an enemy was within movement range, and they'd agree and move on without arguing.

I've done plenty of mapless gaming, but after all the times I've ended up positioning dice on the table, i've really fall into the mode more of using a map of some kind, then fudging the distances if the map itself proves inadequate.

I'm sure I get movement "wrong" now and then, I just don't care.

Not even worth worrying about, really. To me, accuracy is a secondary concern; my concern would be, how does this situation become real to the players?

Every second I spend looking at a battlemap is a second not spent on describing setting, interacting with characters, or creating plot (or eating, joking, etc.). I use maps the same way I use other documents like rulebooks during a session; as little as I can get away with.

I both agree and disagree. I, too, use maps as little as I can get way with. It's just that I view maps as time savers; every second spend describing a scene or thinking about where things are is a few joules of mental energy that could go into being fully engaged with the players mentally and emotionally.

I have similar opinions of world mapping. I spent a lot of time creating a crude but broad map for my world (and I'm glad I did that when I was in high school) but now I only care on a very rough level so there's no reason to do any more work.

I start rough, and fill in details as necessary.

Bottom line: I'm not a very tactical gamer. My shift in direction has resulted in less time-consuming but more entertaining battles that leave time for much deeper storytelling.

I think, when I play something like D&D, I expect the rules to be used, and hence whether I or anyone is a "tactical gamer," I worry the lack of a map really means a lack of options supported by the game. I probably would not use a map, however, with something like classic BESM, Fate, or D6, except a representational one, perhaps, to show cover and proximinity. I love maps in superhero or fantasy games... but standard mapping goes out the window instantly when people start moving or flying at high speeds.

That's one thing I really like about GURPS; because the rounds are 1 second long, characters don't go too far, most of the time. :)
 

“ I'm not going to give you a map. I can give you only a great passion to discover. Yes, a map is not needed; great passion, great desire to discover is needed. Then I leave you alone. Then you go on your own.”
 

Its a funny thing that I'm a pro fantasy cartographer, but in our games we primarily rely on a whiteboard with 1" square grid already on it.

I have maps of the world, the region, major cities, towns, and regularly used villages. I have maps for castles and some dungeon/caverns. Everything else, especially at encounter scale is done on the whiteboard.

Thus issues like range, flanking, spell area, line of sight are determined by the whiteboard. We use a marker to draw up the obstacles and the edges, then place mini's on the board. Voilla, it works for us fine.

GP
 

Two questions, then. First, how do your players know when there is a reasonable opportunity to flank? Second, if you create a "map" in your head, doesn't it make sense to sometimes use a visual representation, however crude, in order to save mental processing capacity for something else?
It's generally agreed that when you have two characters in melee range of one enemy, they can, provided no movement hindrances or other extenuating circumstances. I have a three-PC party with two spellcasters (and one animal companion and sometimes a melee NPC ally) so tactical situations more complicated than that rarely arise. The battlemap is usually for when enemies outnumber those PCs. It does make some sense, which is why we have used a grid on occasion, but after playing together for a while, me and the players usually seem to be able to create compatible maps in our heads based on very simple descriptions. We had a new player in the group this campaign so the maps are mostly for her.

What about when it's not apparent?
Since I find that to be the exception and not the rule, I'm comfortable having a discussion and really takling it out. I can't remember the last time I felt really uncertain about that sort of thing.

Not even worth worrying about, really. To me, accuracy is a secondary concern; my concern would be, how does this situation become real to the players?
I can see where having a visual representation could help some people. My style is to try to keep everything verbal. I explain things to players, they ask questions and make statements that I respond to, and we build a shared image of what's going on. To me, representing movement in "squares" instead of feet breaks immersion. Looking at a painted piece of plastic that symbolizes your characer breaks immersion. I want the players looking at me or at each other. D&D also includes the assumption that foot speeds and bow ranges and weapon reaches are constant, but real combat is much more dynamic, so I find that the further in the background these rules are, the more real the combat seems.

I think, when I play something like D&D, I expect the rules to be used, and hence whether I or anyone is a "tactical gamer," I worry the lack of a map really means a lack of options supported by the game.
I think the rules in D&D aren't meant to be followed. You use houserules, the DM makes many rulings during play. To me, the outcome is what matters. Many other rules (carrying weight and food and drink for example) are often handwaved because they slow down play. I've found that using tactical maps slows down play, so I handwave it.

To give broader background before I started playing D&D I'd do a sort of improv story hour on occasion. I could keep an audience engaged simply by talking. To me, D&D adds to that an interactive element, and rules to arbitrate actions generate by it. If I'm reading a book or watching a movie, I don't arbitrate the story using maps, I just picture it in my head. I'm aware that D&D's history includes tactical wargames, but mine doesn't. I try to spend no more than one-quarter of each session in combat (down from probably half or more years ago). If I'm going to speed through characters eating and drinking and bathing without narration, if I'm going to force each character to articulate their personality in a couple of scenes each week, why would I spend the time looking at a map to see if two characters are 30 or 35 ft. from each other?

You could argue I'm playing the wrong rpg, and I've experimented successfully with rules-lite games. We keep coming back to D&D because we know it so well that it is sort of a rules-lite game for us (but with great depth and detail in character creation), and things like maps are optional. I'm phrasing everything the way I am because the OP's question was framed from the perspective that maps are inherently part of the game, and I am trying to provide a different perspective, to illustrate that such exists. The beauty of D&D is that both views are valid.



Jimlock “ I'm not going to give you a map. I can give you only a great passion to discover. Yes, a map is not needed; great passion, great desire to discover is needed. Then I leave you alone. Then you go on your own.”
In my most recent campaign, I did not give the players a world map because I wanted to represent that most of the world was undiscovered and very few were available. Of course, they all spited me by maxing Knowledge (Geography) and asking questions about where things are.
 
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These days, most of my game playing is done without maps. FOr my Deadlands game I sometimes provide a quick sketch for players to give them an idea of the situation, but most of the time it's all just verbal description.
 

I've played a handful of one-offs and very short campaigns with no maps at all, but that's the exception.

When I DM'ed 2E, I almost never used any tactical-scale maps, we usually handled combat without minis or any visualization of the battlefield. However, I almost always had a larger map of the entire dungeon area that the players were exploring.
 

I voted no, but for some time now I have been toying with the idea of running my D&D/Pathfinder game with no defined world or maps, just a scenario/adventure. For some reason it kinda brings home an idea of a classic D&D game to me. I'm sure my players would be up for it, but it would have a very lose continuity I think. One day I may give it a go.
 

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