HD Gone?

[Gloombunny]

It will be interesting to find out how spells that affect a certain number of hit dice are handled in 4e. Perhaps they now affect total hit points' worth?

Or a certain number of levels.

Levels are the new hit dice.

 

[Henry]

I don't mind much, simply because I'm going to change hit point values from the default, same as I've always done, because I have that DM screen to write my stuff behind.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

It will be interesting to find out how spells that affect a certain number of hit dice are handled in 4e. Perhaps they now affect total hit points' worth?

If the still exist. But I suspect, if they still exist in some kind or form, level and HP are both good indicators.

 

[Nifft]

But will the rules say "all Huge Red Dragons have exactly 250 HP?" The monster manual entry may say 250 hp, but (and I know I'm not telling you anything you don't know)

1: Dunno, but I hope not. 2: Yeah, I can fix it. But I'd rather they didn't make me. I managed to fix gate and buff-scry-teleport in 3.5e, and made some progress towards fixing magic item dependence... but I'd rather spend my time improving other parts of my game. (3: I like my players, in no small part because they're smart.)

A young adult red dragon (huge) has 19d12 HD +95 (218 hp), but is a range of 115 to 323 really any more arbitrary than just giving a base line (the 218) and having the DM decide how many the creature actually has? There's obviously a tremendous difference in the challenge presented by a 115-hp dragon vs a 323-hp dragon

For an even better example of this, see Undead. They have higher individual variance because they often have no fixed constant HP, so designers tend to throw them extra HD. Is that cool? I dunno. It's certainly a different feel than fighting a group of humanoids, because the individual toughness of each critter varies so much. (And for groups like mine, where the players track HP, it's a noticeable change.) I'm not saying this is particularly awesome, but variety is the spice of life, and at least it's a kind of variety.

Cheers, -- N

 

[BryonD]

Decoupling abilities, saves, and skill (etc) from HD could be a very freeing thing. I'm hoping it plays out that way.

OTOH, if everything is now tied to level that could be worse. For example, if every L15 monster has a REF save in the same +/- 4 range just because that "makes the math work", then that would be lame.

hope hope

 

[ThirdWizard]

1) I don't roll monster hp
2) I've never seen a player count monster hp
3) Monster level is really just a new term for Hit Dice

#3 is probably the most relevant point.

Reason for #3 posted by Wujin.

So you still have Hit Dice, but without the term since it isn't needed as everything can just use "Level" as a term instead.

So instead of affecting "Creatures with 5 or less Hit Dice" you can say "Creatures with 5 or less levels" and have it be more applicable. Since "Level" is also rolled in with CR, most likely, we also don't have to worry about all those high HD low CR creatures (or the opposite) that throw all that off. I'm thinking about the high HD/low CR unturnable zombies and things along those lines.

 

[Gwathlas]

If monsters no longer have HD, as the news article on the front page suggests, then are their hit points no longer to be randomly determined? Or is "level" intended to straight-up replace HD? Or...what do they have in mind?

I ask because if it's a step towards breaking out a monster's hit point range from its fighting capability and saving throws then I'm all for it. It sounds like saves are already being broken out as "defenses"...a good start. But it's a short step from there to get to:

Hit points: X + AdB (+ LdB)
Fight level: Y

Where X is a set constant for each monster (or each monster level?); A and B are variables e.g. 1d6, 4d10, etc., and L is the monster's class level if it has any. X takes into account things like Con., so if you want to vary the monster's Con. you'd adjust X based on monster level; for ease of use, X could be assumed as wound points. Y indicates the monster attacks as if it was this level of Fighter. Ideally A would always be a small number - 1 would be best - to reduce die rolling and also to give a more variable range. End result: much more flexibility in monster design, as you could get things like:

Tough Featherweight: (something that takes a while to kill but won't hurt them very much...used in dungeon design as a delay)

Hit points: 200 + 1d100
Fight level: 2
(does low damage, has no special abilities, etc.)

Demon of the Glass Jaw: (hit it once or twice and it's gone but boy is it gonna carve you up in the meantime)

Hit points: 15 + 1d12
Fight level: 25
(does lots of damage, has various fancy abilities, etc.)

Thoughts?

Lanefan

All the monsters and pc's become just roles and your excited? The monster type no longer matters and it's no longer fantasy! What difference will there be between starwars and 4e? Take away the names and they are all the same just brutes or leaders or whatever. You could just buy starwars and skip 4e and still have the same game. 4e is just a starwars clone and not worth spending a cent on.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Decoupling abilities, saves, and skill (etc) from HD could be a very freeing thing. I'm hoping it plays out that way.

OTOH, if everything is now tied to level that could be worse. For example, if every L15 monster has a REF save in the same +/- 4 range just because that "makes the math work", then that would be lame.

hope hope

Well, I understand your feeling, but I wouldn't mind that much. I think it is a lot more important - in fact, the most important thing - that the critters have unique abilities that distinguish them from each other.
A monster doesn't get interesting just because he has a 6 points higher Fortitude Defense but a 3 points lower Reflex and Will defense than the other monster of its level.

It's getting interesting because the one is large with wings, can snatch you and fling you against a wall or just drop you from great heights, while the other monster of its level is small, fires lightning bolts at you and likes to hang around in large groups.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

All the monsters and pc's become just roles and your excited? The monster type no longer matters and it's no longer fantasy! What difference will there be between starwars and 4e?
Take away the names and they are all the same just brutes or leaders or whatever. You could just buy starwars and skip 4e and still have the same game. 4e is just a starwars clone and not worth spending a cent on.

Read my previous post and try to understand why there is a difference.
I don't really feel that it's worth posting more.

 

[Gwathlas]

Well, I understand your feeling, but I wouldn't mind that much. I think it is a lot more important - in fact, the most important thing - that the critters have unique abilities that distinguish them from each other.
A monster doesn't get interesting just because he has a 6 points higher Fortitude Defense but a 3 points lower Reflex and Will defense than the other monster of its level.

It's getting interesting because the one is large with wings, can snatch you and fling you against a wall or just drop you from great heights, while the other monster of its level is small, fires lightning bolts at you and likes to hang around in large groups.

I hope your right and you enjoy 4e but for me it's all a big money making scam. The monster mix may help but if Cormyr was an indication monsters will be uniform and bland.