Headband of Intellect question! (My Int is too low to figure this out!)
- Thread starter Phoenix8008
- Start date
Spatzimaus
First Post
These sorts of headaches are why I go with the "only your inherent INT matters" line. The Headband of Intellect makes you think faster, but IMO it's not going to help you learn any better since it's not making you smarter, it's just giving you some of the effects of thinking more quickly.
If skill points changed with "temporary" INT sources, could you imagine using the INT attack of Psionic combat?
"Lose 2 INT... okay, which 12 skill points are you losing? Oooh, you can't qualify for your Loremaster any more, you lose all those class abilities..."
Here's the next headache: why is it that permanent INT increases don't increase skill points retroactively, but permanent CON increases give retroactive HP?
If skill points changed with "temporary" INT sources, could you imagine using the INT attack of Psionic combat?
"Lose 2 INT... okay, which 12 skill points are you losing? Oooh, you can't qualify for your Loremaster any more, you lose all those class abilities..."
Here's the next headache: why is it that permanent INT increases don't increase skill points retroactively, but permanent CON increases give retroactive HP?
Phoenix8008
First Post
Spatzimaus said:
Perhaps because of what Iku Rex said earlier- 'Int affects how fast you learn.' Just because you are able to learn more quickly NOW does not mean that you could pick up more skills from the past out of this air...
Great, now I'm gonna contradict myself because I just thought of it from another angle. It could almost make sense to gain skill points retroactively if you consider that the character may have had peices of knowledge before but not the intellect to put the peices together into a cohesive whole that might add up to more skill points.
Jeez. I'm gonna go away now and stop thinking about this as it's making my head hurt too much.
As the thread starter, I'd like to thank everyone for all the info and different perspectives on this issue.
If it is increasing your Intelligence, it must be making you smarter- by the very definition of Intelligence. It is also making you learn faster, as this is a subcategory of Intelligence (hence the control of skill points).
There is a difference between 'temporary' Int changes and Headbands of Intellect. For the most part, characters will wear their Headbands around all the time. As a general rule, simply use the quasi-permanent Int score: not the 'inherent' Int score.
Because Int reflects the ability to *learn*. If someone were to undergo some advanced surgery to make him more intelligent, he cannot benefit more from his high school days: he learnt the same amount back then. However, he will pick up more than he would previously have done going about his daily business.
Many of the arguments against gaining Int has worked along the lines of making an overly complicated parody of the situation, then claiming that the parody is too complicated, so the original premise is wrong. The fundamental premise is simply that if a character has a 'quasi-permanent' Int for the entire level (which works both ways i.e. if Cursed for the duration of an entire level, his Int is treated as lower) he gains skill points based on that. Effects not arising from permanent magic or magical items are disregarded. It's not really that complicated.
Spatzimaus
First Post
Originally posted by Al
There is a difference between 'temporary' Int changes and Headbands of Intellect.
If I suffer "permanent" INT ability drain and get it reversed a level later, am I forced to lose skill points?
The line between "temporary" and "permanent" is fuzzy in a game involving magic (especially Wish). It's not so much that I think it shouldn't give points, it's that I think it leaves the door open for a lot of other headaches.
My personal favorite exploit someone came up with: I've made a Headband +6. I loan it to a friend of mine who wants to take one level of a skill-based class, let's say Rogue, to take the skills needed to qualify for a great PrC. He wears the headband for that one level (or even worse, 51% of the level), getting the 3 extra skill points he needs, then gives it back to me once he's done. Heck, if we time our sleep schedules right and if we're staggered by half a level of XP, it's even possible for BOTH of us to gain the benefits of the headband.
Because Int reflects the ability to *learn*. If someone were to undergo some advanced surgery to make him more intelligent, he cannot benefit more from his high school days: he learnt the same amount back then. However, he will pick up more than he would previously have done going about his daily business.
You had my point backwards. I wasn't saying INT should be retroactive. I was asking, why is CON retroactive in regards to HP? Why don't we just say that your CON affects the HP you gain at each level, and that you only get the benefit of your +6 amulet for the levels you were wearing it?
The thing I really want here is consistency. The problem is, D&D just doesn't do consistency well. If you make CON non-retroactive, then what happens when a Barbarian rages? (Answer: replace the CON boost with Temporary HP!) If you make non-inherent INT sources give skill points, why can't a Psion cast Animal Affinity every day as soon as he hits 4th level? 1 hour per level should cover all my important learning time, right? And 3 power points is definitely worth the extra skill points.
There is a difference between 'temporary' Int changes and Headbands of Intellect.
If I suffer "permanent" INT ability drain and get it reversed a level later, am I forced to lose skill points?
The line between "temporary" and "permanent" is fuzzy in a game involving magic (especially Wish). It's not so much that I think it shouldn't give points, it's that I think it leaves the door open for a lot of other headaches.
My personal favorite exploit someone came up with: I've made a Headband +6. I loan it to a friend of mine who wants to take one level of a skill-based class, let's say Rogue, to take the skills needed to qualify for a great PrC. He wears the headband for that one level (or even worse, 51% of the level), getting the 3 extra skill points he needs, then gives it back to me once he's done. Heck, if we time our sleep schedules right and if we're staggered by half a level of XP, it's even possible for BOTH of us to gain the benefits of the headband.
Because Int reflects the ability to *learn*. If someone were to undergo some advanced surgery to make him more intelligent, he cannot benefit more from his high school days: he learnt the same amount back then. However, he will pick up more than he would previously have done going about his daily business.
You had my point backwards. I wasn't saying INT should be retroactive. I was asking, why is CON retroactive in regards to HP? Why don't we just say that your CON affects the HP you gain at each level, and that you only get the benefit of your +6 amulet for the levels you were wearing it?
The thing I really want here is consistency. The problem is, D&D just doesn't do consistency well. If you make CON non-retroactive, then what happens when a Barbarian rages? (Answer: replace the CON boost with Temporary HP!) If you make non-inherent INT sources give skill points, why can't a Psion cast Animal Affinity every day as soon as he hits 4th level? 1 hour per level should cover all my important learning time, right? And 3 power points is definitely worth the extra skill points.
jgbrowning
Hero
since int is a measure of "how well your character learns and reasons"..... not just a measure of how well you learn...
int should be treated like CON. it goes up your skills go up, it goes down your skills go down. (tangent here... even CON is a mixture of two independant things.. health and stamina. Your CON could go up making you as healthy as a horse, but doing nada for your ability to run a marathon.... ) I dont think there's an arguement about this. Int is not only the ability to learn it is also the ability to reason.
if your int goes down you're ability to reason goes down.. if your int drops to 5, you're going to forget the skills you learned. If you barely managed to learn particle physics and you suddenly lost 6 points of int... do you think it would make sense that you'd still understand it or do you think you'd remember that you once understood it. I think the latter.
its kinda like when you get brain damaged and you forget things, but they're still there hardcoded, it just takes time for them to recode their paths again. (ie. temp vrs perm loss)
hrm... im not making much sense... i hope this is understandable.
I think the main issue here is that the game mechanics are a really pain in the butt to deal with when you treat INT this way.
just my .002$
joe b.
int should be treated like CON. it goes up your skills go up, it goes down your skills go down. (tangent here... even CON is a mixture of two independant things.. health and stamina. Your CON could go up making you as healthy as a horse, but doing nada for your ability to run a marathon.... ) I dont think there's an arguement about this. Int is not only the ability to learn it is also the ability to reason.
if your int goes down you're ability to reason goes down.. if your int drops to 5, you're going to forget the skills you learned. If you barely managed to learn particle physics and you suddenly lost 6 points of int... do you think it would make sense that you'd still understand it or do you think you'd remember that you once understood it. I think the latter.
its kinda like when you get brain damaged and you forget things, but they're still there hardcoded, it just takes time for them to recode their paths again. (ie. temp vrs perm loss)
hrm... im not making much sense... i hope this is understandable.
I think the main issue here is that the game mechanics are a really pain in the butt to deal with when you treat INT this way.
just my .002$
joe b.
Re: Re: Re: Headband of Intellect question! (My Int is too low to figure this out!)
According to the actual rules, your intelligence affects how fast you learn, and there is no indication that you somehow "de-learn" skills if your intelligence drops.
You were giving incorrect advice pretending it was based on the rules. Thus "bad advice". I really though that was self-evident.
Let's see...kreynolds said:
Incorrect. See the quote I posted.Simulacrum said:
(My emphasis). Incorrect. See the quote I posted.kreynolds said:
According to the actual rules, your intelligence affects how fast you learn, and there is no indication that you somehow "de-learn" skills if your intelligence drops.
You were giving incorrect advice pretending it was based on the rules. Thus "bad advice". I really though that was self-evident.
kreynolds
First Post
Re: Re: Re: Re: Headband of Intellect question! (My Int is too low to figure this out!)
Your quote only addresses gaining hit points, not losing, and it doesn't work the same in reverse. I can use your same logic to say that I never lose hit points because my Con drops. Why? Well, my Con was higher for the previous levels, and I already gained my hit points, so you can't take them away now.
Doesn't work.
It's only "bad advice" if it is proven wrong, which you have yet to do.
Iku Rex said:
Your quote only addresses gaining hit points, not losing, and it doesn't work the same in reverse. I can use your same logic to say that I never lose hit points because my Con drops. Why? Well, my Con was higher for the previous levels, and I already gained my hit points, so you can't take them away now.
Doesn't work.
Iku Rex said:
It's only "bad advice" if it is proven wrong, which you have yet to do.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Headband of Intellect question! (My Int is too low to figure this out!)
I can't prove that loosing Int won't make a character's head explode either, but until someone provides a rule basis for that claim I will consider it bad advice to tell people that loosing Int will make a character's head explode.
My quote specifically says that you get the extra skill points because you learn faster. How can you, retroactively, "not have learned" what you now know?kreynolds said:
The same logic? The rules say that increased hit points from a high Con are gained because a higher Con helps you learn to avoid damage faster? This is the first time I hear of this...kreynolds said:
It doesn't work because it contradicts the rules on Constitution (page 9), the explanation of what hit points represent (page 128) and there is no reason to believe it to be true.kreynolds said:
I believe I have proven you wrong as far as it's possible.kreynolds said:
I can't prove that loosing Int won't make a character's head explode either, but until someone provides a rule basis for that claim I will consider it bad advice to tell people that loosing Int will make a character's head explode.
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