Heal skill and dying characters

[JMnITup]

Ok... it's a dc 10 check to heal an ally in combat (well, to get them to use a 2nd wind without spending an action) ... it says it allows them to use a 2nd wind, but I think it really means that it allows you to use one of their healing surges? Since second wind can only be self triggered (I think?) as a standard (or minor for dwarves) action, and 1 time per encounter... so the dc 10 check is to use a healing surge? (which can be done when they are unconscious?)

Now, it's a dc 15 check to stabilize the dying... this doesn't change their HP.

And finally, if a person receives any healing when unconscious, they are immediately raised to 0 HP, then the additional hp are added, and a healing surge is (usually) expended (if the heal was the result of a triggered healing surge). Also, if the target has no healing surges left but a power is used on him when dying that would normally trigger one, he is raised to 1 hp.

So my main question is, why would anyone EVER try for the 15 dc stabilize check, when the 10dc heal check is SUBSTANTIALLY more powerful? if they have no healing surges, they get 1hp, if they do, they get 0 + their healing surge... for a dc 5 less than the check that would leave them at -30 hp but just not dying.

???

The ONLY thing I can figure is, it means what it says (huh, imagine that.. I say this now because it just occurred to me as I was typing this)... it triggers the characters second wind, and won't work if they've already used it that encounter? So basically, it's a trade-off.. you use your action to do it earlier, they don't waste an action on it, but they also don't get the defensive bonus, nor will it even work if they don't have a second wind available... and I assume they can refuse the action? Huh, the heal skill just became less useful than I thought it was, but likely good.. what I was imagining was it being like a cleric without the bonus on top of healing surge... good and bad points to that, I guess.

 

[mach1.9pants]

If the unconcious ally has already used his second wind the DC10 activate second wind won't work. You can only use it once per encounter.

 

[Kordeth]

Ok... it's a dc 10 check to heal an ally in combat (well, to get them to use a 2nd wind without spending an action) ... it says it allows them to use a 2nd wind, but I think it really means that it allows you to use one of their healing surges? Since second wind can only be self triggered (I think?) as a standard (or minor for dwarves) action, and 1 time per encounter... so the dc 10 check is to use a healing surge? (which can be done when they are unconscious?)

No, it's definitely second wind, not healing surge. The First Aid description specifically says "use his or her second wind without spending an action," and then goes on to say that this free second wind doesn't give the +2 to defenses that second wind usually gives.

Now, it's a dc 15 check to stabilize the dying... this doesn't change their HP.

Correct.

And finally, if a person receives any healing when unconscious, they are immediately raised to 0 HP, then the additional hp are added, and a healing surge is (usually) expended (if the heal was the result of a triggered healing surge). Also, if the target has no healing surges left but a power is used on him when dying that would normally trigger one, he is raised to 1 hp.

Again, correct.

So my main question is, why would anyone EVER try for the 15 dc stabilize check, when the 10dc heal check is SUBSTANTIALLY more powerful? if they have no healing surges, they get 1hp, if they do, they get 0 + their healing surge... for a dc 5 less than the check that would leave them at -30 hp but just not dying.

Because as stated above, the DC10 First Aid check lets an ally use his second wind, not spend a healing surge, and second wind can only be used once per encounter.

 

[Byronic]

Yeah but at least the other character can go on fighting instead of using his standard action.... although... this does make someone else sacrifice their action.

 

[PeelSeel2]

Second wind is something that a character gets once per encounter. Normally it is a standard action to activate for the the character. The Heal allows an adjacent character to activate it for that character without that character having to spend an action. It does not give an extra Second Wind, or an unlimited amount of second winds. It is a once per encounter power.

So if the character is knocked to negatives and has not spent his/her second wind, yes a DC 10 heal test would help that character tremendously. Probably the best use of second wind, really.

But if the character already has spent it, the DC 10 heal is not an option. If they are in negatives, they have to make the DC 15. Otherwise the only thing heal is good for is granting a saving throw (very useful, ask our paladin)