D&D 5E Healing after 29 Oct playtest

Tyrex

First Post
Cybit I think you might be correct that it has always been an abstraction. That would lend to the fact that throughout the reinventions of D&D, it has always been at least a sore spot for most of us.

IIRC, and I do in general, whenever low level to approaching mid level characters reached 0 HP (and a PC always did) things would get tense. We often times would stop play to take inventory of every available option and the game would grind to a halt as everyone argued over the ambiguity of HP being an abstraction.

One of my long term players seemed to have especially bad luck and would get to this point more often than others. Over time, it impacted morale of not just him but the group in general. We at some point switched to Situational Ethics as our alignment strategy and he tended to always take the darker/Iron Rule side I think as a result.
 

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gweinel

Explorer
I've talked to folks who've seen the detailed playtest feedback, and they are coming quickly to the conclusion that people are as pissed about options being IN the system as they are about options not being in the system.

The amount of times they have received "well, the option I want is in the playtest, but this other option shouldn't be in the playtest" is astounding.

In this issue I agree with you. I fail to see why the ppl want less choices. From when pluralism is a bad thing. Probably they consider that this their precious game and can't accept the other ppl that have different opinion.
 

gweinel

Explorer
IIRC, in every edition of the game it has been flat out stated that HP are an abstraction, including the boxed set. Part of it is that we've kind of grown up, and things we were fine not thinking about now we do think about, and is gnawing at us.

While always hps were an abstraction i have different feeling of healing in the games of 3e and different when i play at 4e. The "lower" healing spikes, the fewer recharges (no short rests) and the fewer hps of the pcs of 3rd (actually all the editions before 4th) give the game a distinct feeling that is not in the 4th. I was searching for that feeling in the 5e, but the rules as they are written don't support it.

To clarify: I don't have any problem with any mechanic. I know the healing mechanic of 4th has many funs. That's fine. I don't have a problem if a similar mechanic is in 5e. But it would great if i could play my favorite game as i like in the next iteration of d&d too. :)
 

darjr

I crit!
IIRC, in every edition of the game it has been flat out stated that HP are an abstraction, including the boxed set. Part of it is that we've kind of grown up, and things we were fine not thinking about now we do think about, and is gnawing at us.

That isn't at question. Just what the abstraction was, is, at least for me.
 

Unwise

Adventurer
Sorry to wade in on the age-old "what are HP?" discussion, but I had an interesting thing happen recently.

I had a player get all upset about the concept of Hit Points and how it was unclear what the represented etc. I just put the onus back on them, I asked them what had happened to their character when they got hit or when they dropped.

He was being rather arguementative so I just said "The orc successfully slashed you with his scimitar, why aren't you dead?". He had to come up with a reason why his character was still alive. He decided that he had taken the blow on the shield and it has nearly snapped his forearm and driven the sheild into his jaw breaking a few teeth.

This sparked off some creativity amongst the group that really helped the RP of the session. It was quiet unique how each person envisioned 'damage' and rather character defining.

The Dwarven Battlemind - He just takes the damage, but his armor and hide are so thick damage does not penetrate all that far. This character was described as being a bloody mess after every fight. He was missing ears and teeth, the cleric was regularly reattaching lost fingers and he was shoving bandages into gaping wounds, lifting shields with a broken splinted arm and driving forward by pure force of will.
It really brought to the fore the toughness and super human willpower of the character. No finesse, just bloody determination. It ties in well with his huge con and will scores and superior will/fort feats.

The eladrin swordmage - This guy described his character as parrying all of the 'hits' a little too late. So a neck shot was deflected so it just caught the edge of his shoulder. A mis-timed parry of a knee attack drives the enemies blade into his boot. When he dropped to zero HP all these little nicks and scratches caught up with him and he could not parry the final blow.

The halfling theif - This guy had an interesting take on HP. He is a devout follower of lady luck. He just sees himself as lucky. Almost every time he gets 'hit' he gets away with it through some absolute fluke of luck. The lowering of HP represents him 'pushing his luck too far'. When he hits zero HP he just ran out of luck and the enemy finally hit him properly. He does not see his character as tough at all, he thinks that one or two good shots should drop him.

This leads to some really nice roleplaying and character definition. I am a firm believer that it is up to the players to help the system make sense. If a character knocks a giant snake prone, they should come up with a way of representing that. For me this improves the feel of the game and also leads to some very cool descriptions.
 

Blackwarder

Adventurer
I'm so sick and tired of all the whining about the healing options, personally I like the fact that there are different options, I'm not that crazy about the experimental rules but I wouldn't mind them being an option in the game (although I might try out the first one, having a reason for the party to avoid combat while resting is very interesting)

I find that the original rules coupled with slower HP recovery option work best for my group while I'm DMing, I'm pretty sure that the much faster healing will work best of another of our DMs...

And as for what HP represent in the game world I think that [MENTION=98008]Unwise[/MENTION] idea is an excellent one for a couple of reasons a. it's a great idea to avoid the what-are-ho argument and b. it's a great way to make the players more involved.

Warder
 

Raith5

Adventurer
While always hps were an abstraction i have different feeling of healing in the games of 3e and different when i play at 4e. The "lower" healing spikes, the fewer recharges (no short rests) and the fewer hps of the pcs of 3rd (actually all the editions before 4th) give the game a distinct feeling that is not in the 4th. I was searching for that feeling in the 5e, but the rules as they are written don't support it.

To clarify: I don't have any problem with any mechanic. I know the healing mechanic of 4th has many funs. That's fine. I don't have a problem if a similar mechanic is in 5e. But it would great if i could play my favorite game as i like in the next iteration of d&d too. :)

I think the rate of the ebb and flow of hp in combat is far bigger issue than the question of recovery out of it. I like the healing spikes that came into the game with 4th ed it made the use of healing (especially second wind) a tactical choice that is really fun and dynamic part of the game. Maybe the spikes were too big, but the variety of way these spikes could be triggered was a strength of the game.

The question is how can the designers create monsters, damage outputs, healing abilities that capture 4th ed and pre 4th ed sensibilities. I dont think this is an easy task.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Cybit said:
I've talked to folks who've seen the detailed playtest feedback, and they are coming quickly to the conclusion that people are as pissed about options being IN the system as they are about options not being in the system.

The amount of times they have received "well, the option I want is in the playtest, but this other option shouldn't be in the playtest" is astounding.

I hope the designers are thinking long and hard about when not to take these jerks seriously.

"Your right to swing your fist ends at my nose," and "It's good to be intolerant of intolerance" and all that.

The people who think that their way to pretend to be a make-believe gumdrop elf needs to be imposed on all of everyone or they won't play it are people that, IMO, the hobby can afford to lose. Those folks are better off making a hobby of getting some frickin' perspective on life and checking their irrational need for authority and self-validation at the door.
 

Uller

Adventurer
The people who think that their way to pretend to be a make-believe gumdrop elf needs to be imposed on all of everyone or they won't play it are people that, IMO, the hobby can afford to lose. Those folks are better off making a hobby of getting some frickin' perspective on life and checking their irrational need for authority and self-validation at the door.

I agree with you...to me, if it's got the four iconic classes, levels, hp, spells, magic, dungeons, monsters, exploration, RP and combat...I can probably have fun playing it. I'll play it RAW until I understand it, then I'll suggest changes to my group to make it suit our needs and play style.

However...the people who feel strongest about this stuff are also the people who are most likely to spend time and money and evangelize the hobby.

I coach youth ice hockey. I've played since I was 6. For those of you who don't play hockey (or a sport) what makes more sense to you for introducing small children to the sport:

1) play on a small portion of the ice rink with a small group at your home town rink where kids are on the ice and actively playing/touching the puck A LOT, spending no more than 20 minutes in the car for an hour or more on the ice actively playing and each "game" costing about $5-10 per kid

OR

2) Spend 3-5 hours in the car to play on full ice with 12-15 players per team so each kid only gets about 15 minutes on the ice per game and each game costing $20-$30 per kid (plus gas and food for trips to far away places).

To me, the first option makes the most sense. It's semi-organized pond hockey (which is what I played growing up) and the equivalent of sandlot baseball or back yard football. Kids get good at the basic skills by doing them over and over while having fun doing it. Unfortunately ice hockey is run and funded by volunteer parents. The most dedicated die hard parents (the ones who will volunteer) WANT to travel 3-5 ours so their little ones can play "real" hockey...They don't want little Johnny playing with losers who can barely skate...the think that in order to get good, their 7 year old must play with other "NHL/NCAA bound" 7 year olds. (it doesn't occur to them that their little one has a better chance of becoming a doctor or lawyer than to play even a single game in the NHL) so anytime someone tries to organize something sensible, those parents take their ball (or puck) and go elsewhere, leaving no one to volunteer to run the local program (seriously...we have local families that drive 2 hours away on school nights just for practice).

D&D is like that. The designers have to make a core game that keeps the die-hards happy because it is the die-hards that will recruit newbies into the game. But they have to make a game that newbies will find fun as well and that means keeping it exciting and simple which die hards (many) immediately reject because it doesn't validate their version of how the game should work.

Not all die-hards, obviously. But to me, as soon as someone says they can't have fun playing this game because XYZ, my eyes roll...I've never encountered a game system that I left intact for long...I play it RAW until I feel like I understand it, then I mod it to suit my tastes (and the tastes of who I play it with). RPGs, table top war games...hell, we modified Monopoly!

As for HP...HP are abstract. If you like to pretend it's a physical hit that does phyiscal damage, knock yourself out. I like to make it whatever makes sense at a given moment...that's why it's abstract. If you want slow healing, then by all means...spend days, weeks doing RP stuff. My group doesn't meet very often...we're a beer and pretzels group...we want to get to the dungeon crawl and fight the BBEG. As long as I can do that with DDN, I'll probably play it.
 

Cybit

First Post
I hope the designers are thinking long and hard about when not to take these jerks seriously.

"Your right to swing your fist ends at my nose," and "It's good to be intolerant of intolerance" and all that.

The people who think that their way to pretend to be a make-believe gumdrop elf needs to be imposed on all of everyone or they won't play it are people that, IMO, the hobby can afford to lose. Those folks are better off making a hobby of getting some frickin' perspective on life and checking their irrational need for authority and self-validation at the door.

The entire edition wars thing is more about people wanting to validate themselves by showing that the other person is completely wrong moreso than anything else. It's more about badwrongfun, and proving that the other person is bad & wrong.

Problem is, there are a lot of those jerks, and many of those jerks either already play 4E or play Pathfinder. I've been told how the data skews w/ regard to systems currently played & those who want options taken away, but it would just probably turn this thread into an edition war. Leave it at, what happens when those "jerks" end up being part of your target demographic?
 

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