Healing Clarification

[Chimera]

I've been playing D&D since the very early days (starting with the white box set), but I'm a bit poor at the moment and don't have all the 4e books and errata at the moment.

I have some questions about healing.

Of the four Leader classes in the PHB and PHB2, three of them list 'Healing Surge + nd6'. Only one, the Bard, lists "+ charisma modifier". None of these powers are implement powers.

And yet, the Restful Healing feat in the PHB uses a Cleric as it's example and specifically mentions the Wisdom bonus.

That and in one of my games, the Cleric is adding really sick bonuses to his surges. So high that I have no freaking clue what combination of bonuses, feats and what have you could possibly come to a bonus slightly higher than our current (low teens) level. Maybe he's cheating, maybe he's adding stuff he shouldn't be, maybe he has a whole bunch of stuff I've never heard of. I've asked, but he didn't answer.

SO:

Do attribute bonuses count towards the healing powers?
Do implements and/or implement expertise count toward these powers?

Are there feats to allow them to do so in books other than the two PHBs?

For the Shaman, their healing is split between two targets. If the attribute bonus counts, does it count toward both? (In other words, Surge + A to first target, nd6+A to second)

Now, I'm playing a 1st level Shaman in a game, so that last one is important to me. I'd then like to know how it works with Spirit Shield.

My Shaman, +6 to hit against Reflex (+4 wis, +1 implement, +1 expertise)
Wis damage to target (6). Heal one target by Wis bonus. So 4, or 6? (which would be 7 or 9 if they're next to my Spirit, as my character has a 16 Con).

 

[FireLance]

The cleric gets his Wisdom bonus to hit points restored by cleric powers with the Healing keyword from the Healer's Lore class feature. A protector spirit shaman may add his Constitution bonus to the hit points regained by an ally who is adjacent to his spirit companion when the ally uses second wind or when the shaman uses a healing power on the ally. The bard adds his Charisma bonus to the hit points restored by majestic word as part of the power. The warlord does not automatically add any ability score modifiers to the hit points he restores with inspiring word, but he may take a feat (from Martial Power) to add his Charisma bonus and/or another feat (if he is an eladrin, also from Martial Power) to add his Intelligence bonus.

In addition, there are magic items such as the healer's brooch, holy healer's weapon, healer's armor, etc. from Adventurer's Vault and Adventurer's Vault 2 which increase a cleric's ability to restore hit points (some of these also work for the other leader classes).

Implement bonuses generally do not add to the number of hit points restored, but there is a feat from Divine Power (Healer's Implement) that allows a cleric to do this. Another feat from Divine Power, Pacifist Healer, also greatly increases a cleric's ability to restore hit points, but stuns the cleric if he deals damage to a bloodied enemy. An 11th-level cleric with 18 Wisdom, 18 Charisma, Healer's Implement, Pacifist Healer, a +2 holy symbol, a +2 holy healer's weapon, a +2 healer's brooch and +2 healer's armor could restore 5d6+16 hit points in addition to the target's healing surge value with each use of healing word.

With respect to your shaman questions, it could be argued that when you use healing spirit, you use the power on both your allies, so both your allies should get your Constitution bonus to hit points restored if both are adjacent to your spirit companion. Some DMs may choose to interpret that the target of the power is the only one it is used on, however.

As for spirit shield, if you have 18 or 19 Wisdom are using a +1 implement with Implement Expertise, then your attack bonus would be +6 as you have calculated. Damage would only be 4 points as enhancement bonuses only add to damage rolls (and hence would not be added if you do not roll dice to determine damage) and Implement Expertise does not add to damage. If you have a 16 Constitution, your ally regains 7 hit points.

 

[DracoSuave]

With respect to your shaman questions, it could be argued that when you use healing spirit, you use the power on both your allies, so both your allies should get your Constitution bonus to hit points restored if both are adjacent to your spirit companion. Some DMs may choose to interpret that the target of the power is the only one it is used on, however.

The bonus goes to both. The Spirit Boon doesn't mention nor imply targetting in any way. This is -very- important as these are two class features and not a corner case. If they meant to imply targetting they'd mention it...

...not to mention the vast majority of healing powers do not target the individual healed anyways... it's usually 'Attack the target and heal your buddy.'

It's the same animal as the Cleric bonus, except it's positional.

As for spirit shield, if you have 18 or 19 Wisdom are using a +1 implement with Implement Expertise, then your attack bonus would be +6 as you have calculated. Damage would only be 4 points as enhancement bonuses only add to damage rolls (and hence would not be added if you do not roll dice to determine damage) and Implement Expertise does not add to damage. If you have a 16 Constitution, your ally regains 7 hit points.

This is correct. However, do understand, this is 7 hit points -as an opportunity action- for the enemy moving without shifting, and generally your opponent will also get an opportunity attack as well. This is also a lot of healing capability, but nothing you can rely on. But you -can- use it to your advantage tactically if you're smart.

One thing I can suggest is not to get so caught up on the Cleric's healing focus. All other things being equal, a Cleric -will- outheal any other Leader. Someone has to be the best at healing, and that's a cleric. You should then focus on the -other- aspects of leading, the damage boosts, the hit-bonuses, the flanking opportunities, because -those- are as powerful and welcome in a group. A Cleric who focuses on healbot doesn't provide nearly as much of this as you can (and no, Righteous Brand isn't a replacement for a buff-leader). If you can refocus on Panther Shaman-style leading, you'll find your team effectiveness will go up as a whole, as while the Cleric will be defending the hp bar, you'll actually be multiplying the effectiveness of the entire team.

And your healing will be -fine-. The Cleric will handle the most of it (as is his spec) so you can focus on other things.

Also, for your own peace of mind, keep track of how much hit points the Cleric -over heals.- If a party member is down 10 hps and he heals for 20, that's 10 hps wasted. Over time, that adds up to quite a lot of healing that the Cleric -isn't actually doing.-.


The trick with two leaders is to focus one on offense, and the other on defense. Shamans are -way- better offensive leaders than Clerics, so you should try to fulfill that role.

And you don't necessarily need to go Panther to do it either.

 

[Chimera]

Thanks for the input.

In the game with the Cleric, I am a Bard. I wasn't too worried about his ability to do so much healing, I just didn't know where the numbers were coming from. Now it all adds up and I'm cool with it.

In the new game, I'm a Panther Shaman on a team with 2 Avengers, 1 Monk, 1 Warlock and 1 Warden. (Ie, 4 Strikers, 1 Leader/Striker, 1 Defender) So not so much healing on that team, which is why I'm contemplating switching over to the Bear Shaman role.

But I have another week and a half before our second session to mull it over.

 

[DracoSuave]

Thanks for the input.

In the game with the Cleric, I am a Bard. I wasn't too worried about his ability to do so much healing, I just didn't know where the numbers were coming from. Now it all adds up and I'm cool with it.

In the new game, I'm a Panther Shaman on a team with 2 Avengers, 1 Monk, 1 Warlock and 1 Warden. (Ie, 4 Strikers, 1 Leader/Striker, 1 Defender) So not so much healing on that team, which is why I'm contemplating switching over to the Bear Shaman role.

But I have another week and a half before our second session to mull it over.

Naw, you'll be killing stuff faster with Panther. Your job is to -lead- not necessarily to -healbot-.

Healing is -overvalued- in this game... your buffs are far more useful in the long term. All of these guys can take powers for Temp HP and/or self-healing to take the burden off you.

And 4 Strikers with no controller and only 1 defender is a bit much, even if those 2 strikers are Avengers. Of those, only the Monk can actually form a front line beside the Warden, seeing as the Avengers are going to be too busy keeping -away- from the front line to get their Oaths in.

If this party has trouble, it's not because you're not healing enough, a Shielding Cleric might not be enough 'healing' for this team.

But that's because 'more healing' is often just a bandaid for the real problem: Poor Party Composition. Now, switch out one of the Avengers for a Beast Form Druid, and either the monk or the other avenger for a Taclord and you have a -team-. Everyone can melee fine and everyone can do a lot of damage, but now you have your weaknesses covered, and your ability to make your party win faster will not have to be sacrificed to cover party-generation-fail.

 

[Chimera]

Amazingly enough, one of the Avengers almost got killed in the first session due to being overly aggressive and the player was busy writing up a new DRUID for the several turns it took me to get around to healing him.

Otherwise yeah, I like being able to do cool stuff and I don't want to turn my character into another healing leader with limited cool stuff because he's too busy covering the party's butts. (As the Bard was for too long because the Cleric player was unavailable for over a year; and even before that because he was a 3.5e Bard to start.)

As it is, probably I'll stick with Panther Shaman and at 2nd level take Spirit of Life (arguably better than CLW because it's ranged) and multi-class to a Cleric of The Raven Queen for the daily Healing Word power and Religion training. That gives me two more daily heals (besides the Staunching Armor and Hungry Spirit Totem). Then the rest of my party can look out for themselves.

Until or unless the Primal book gives me kewl new killing feats.

 

[DracoSuave]

Amazingly enough, one of the Avengers almost got killed in the first session due to being overly aggressive and the player was busy writing up a new DRUID for the several turns it took me to get around to healing him.

Otherwise yeah, I like being able to do cool stuff and I don't want to turn my character into another healing leader with limited cool stuff because he's too busy covering the party's butts. (As the Bard was for too long because the Cleric player was unavailable for over a year; and even before that because he was a 3.5e Bard to start.)

As it is, probably I'll stick with Panther Shaman and at 2nd level take Spirit of Life (arguably better than CLW because it's ranged) and multi-class to a Cleric of The Raven Queen for the daily Healing Word power and Religion training. That gives me two more daily heals (besides the Staunching Armor and Hungry Spirit Totem). Then the rest of my party can look out for themselves.

Until or unless the Primal book gives me kewl new killing feats.

Naw. Just boost your own stuff. Do what's fun, the party will learn to adjust. Daily healing word is rarely worth it by itself.

Go for Moar Keeling.

 

[Diirk]

Naw. Just boost your own stuff. Do what's fun, the party will learn to adjust. Daily healing word is rarely worth it by itself.

Go for Moar Keeling.

Panther shaman has tons of feats to spare at heroic tier in my experience, so multiclassing to cleric isn't such a bad idea. Panther's aren't really that great at killing stuff, alot of feats/items that boost damage apply specifically to weapons or damage types, of which the shaman typically uses neither.

They can boost teammates decently, but usually through strategically used encounter powers, so their effectiveness drops off a bit the longer the fight goes (Mind you, the same could be said of alot of classes).

 

[Chimera]

Hopefully the Primal book will fill than hole.