D&D 5E Healing in 5E

[Nagol]

But you can't think of a single example?

As for "skill at D&D", no insult, but I've heard that sort of thing a lot from people who I've then played with and found actually they just had a very specific pattern of play that they used to deal with their usual DM, and that they couldn't handle other DMs the same way. Whether that's the case here, I can't say.

The DM remained unchanged so the world and game player did not change. The NPC tactics and choices were controlled by Emerikol, that's all.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

The DM remained unchanged so the world and game player did not change. The NPC tactics and choices were controlled by Emerikol, that's all.

That's what I mean, though, player groups learn to counteract specific DMs, in my experience. People are predictable.

 

[Nagol]

That's what I mean, though, player groups learn to counteract specific DMs, in my experience. People are predictable.

Absolutely! And having a dedicated person take over an NPC almost always makes it harder since the DM is juggling a lot of other things as well. It may be the other DM underplays creature abilities though; I've seen it frequently enough. Once a couple of decades ago, a housemate and I were both DMs and discussed styles. We took a group of players and both ran them through the same basic scenario with remarkably different results. A bit could be attributed to random factors, but the rest came from how the DM deployed resources and what tactical options were chosen.

 

[KarinsDad]

I don't play with RBDMs, generally speaking, because IME, they aren't interested in providing a good game, solely in impressing upon you how much a jerk they are. As an adult, I have better things to do than hang out with people keen to prove themselves jerks.

Wow. So if a DM CDGs a PC, then he is automatically a jerk?

Got it.

Btw, I'm not talking about every single NPC doing this. In 4 years of 4E (I did not play for 2 years because of moving out of state and not finding new players), it has probably happened only once because the situation has only come up once. Once players started understanding 4E, and once the splat books / Dragon magazine added in bigger, better, badder synergies, it started becoming rare to even have a PC go unconscious. In our games, we had one TPK (the first night due to PCs having the fight before Ironfist without a short rest before the Ironfist fight), 2 or 3 where one PC was left standing and saved the day, and about 3 or 4 PC deaths.

4e is SO forgiving that death is rare and even unconsciousness can be rare, at least if the DM follows the DMG guidelines for monsters and he has tactically smart players who do at least some reasonable amount of optimization for their PCs.

I played in a 4E LFR campaign recently where the Fighter went unconscious a lot. It's because he had a crappy AC wearing hide armor (even my Sorcerer had a higher AC and she hadn't even taken Unarmored Agility, but she had other ways to protect herself and never went unconscious). So sure, if PCs do not try to keep their defenses up or they make a lot of mistakes, I can see unconsciousness happening a lot.

But, I would definitely have the reoccurring villain CDG an unconscious PC. The players would really start to hate the reoccurring villain. That's why it is called roleplaying. As a good DM, you want to get those emotions stirring within your players. You want them to despise the reoccurring villain.

And sure, if the PCs have already healed up an unconscious PC and one of the smarter NPCs who is not the reoccurring villian has the opportunity to do a CDG, I think a good DM should often do it if it makes sense . 4E was so non-threatening that it makes sense to remind players that yes, busting down doors and assuming that you will survive every single encounter is not quite a valid premise.

If you think this is jerky behavior, then meh.

That's not what I'm talking about though, is it?

I'm talking about you having these NPCs being routinely smart enough to know to kick away a weapon, and that costing no actions and requiring no roll, and PCs equally all carrying multiple weapons and being able to both stand up AND draw their weapon AND to attack in the same turn at no penalty.

It's RAW, I agree (except the kick-away, that's DM's call), but RAW doesn't mean it doesn't seem cheesy!

FWIW I actually like PCs who bother to bring the right weapon for the right job, but the fact that it painlessly invalidates the kick-away just makes the whole scenario even more slap-stick-ish/cartoony!

Odd. We'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't think that the DM doing this once in a while is cheesy, especially if the PC healer has already healed during this encounter, nor do I think it cartoonish if the player whose PC the DM did it against has a good time having his PC stand up and pull out his weapon and go "Ah ha!". To me, that's a good time moment for that player and not cartoonish.

 

[Emerikol]

But you can't think of a single example?

Nothing comes to mind but 30+ years is a long time to remember everything.

As for "skill at D&D", no insult, but I've heard that sort of thing a lot from people who I've then played with and found actually they just had a very specific pattern of play that they used to deal with their usual DM, and that they couldn't handle other DMs the same way. Whether that's the case here, I can't say.

Well of course the skill of which I speak is related to a playstyle. I believe those players were playing a monte haul version of my style though. They otherwise were just dealing with a DM that gave out extra treasure and played the monsters weak. If that is fun that is fine too. I wasn't condemning that campaign. I was simply stating that after having my own game put down because my players apparently weren't as good as his players, I proved a point.

 

[KarinsDad]

Still we can agree that a fighter whose turn is after yours who goes down before your turn, is a very good candidate for healing. Once healed he becomes a blocker again. While down he is in greater danger of getting killed (mostly at low levels). You don't want the enemy pouring past you and onto the squishies. So that is not an uncommon case.

Yup. On the other hand, if that same Fighter has 3 hit points and his turn was after mine, I would not heal him in 5E. It means that I get to attack and he gets to attack and there is probably little the enemy can do to stop this based on how inits work. In fact, the fighter may never get hit again in this combat and healing him would waste a perfectly good heal that the cleric could put on the downed wizard.

I think that we are on the same page here.

 

[Emerikol]

Yup. On the other hand, if that same Fighter has 3 hit points and his turn was after mine, I would not heal him in 5E. It means that I get to attack and he gets to attack and there is probably little the enemy can do to stop this based on how inits work. In fact, the fighter may never get hit again in this combat and healing him would waste a perfectly good heal that the cleric could put on the downed wizard.

I think that we are on the same page here.

We are. We might dicker over where the line is at but that is a minor concern.

 

[KarinsDad]

Nothing comes to mind but 30+ years is a long time to remember everything.

Wow. You just reminded me that it's been over 35 years for me and coming up on 40. I do remember doing CDGs, but I no longer remember the circumstances either. I do remember a DM killing one of my PCs though (off camera). Interesting how a player remembers his PCs dying, but the DM often forgets (or at least I do) most of the names of the hundreds of PCs in the games over the years.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Wow. So if a DM CDGs a PC, then he is automatically a jerk?

Got it.

Got it from where? Must somewhere else, because it's not from me.

But an RBDM is automatically a jerk, by my definition - it's part of the RB. Your definition may vary.

As for forgetting, I've killed a few dozen PCs, but I can remember the circumstances of most of those, so it surprises me that others can't.

 

[Dausuul]

Healers (and casters in general) are unusual in my campaign worlds, so NPCs won't normally coup de grace. They're used to fighting other NPCs and assume, as the PCs do, that downed foes are going to stay that way. The opportunity cost of CdG is considerable; you don't want to waste your action on a guy who's already out of the fight when there are other guys actively trying to kill you.

However, the first time NPCs see a supposedly defeated enemy pop back up, they'll change their tactics. That's the hazard of waiting to heal till your fellow PCs are at zero: You make things a lot more dangerous for any other PC who goes down.

If the NPCs do know that the PCs have a healer, they will again use standard PC tactics and target the healer first.