Healing Potions seem woeful

[Chibbot]

My only issue with them is that they do you no good if you have no surges left.

Depending on how it ends up playing out (in the playtest games I've run, no one has ever actually run out of surges), I may houserule that they have 1/2 or 1/3 effect if you have no surges left.

 

[jaycrockett]

Healing surges are actually a really good mechanic. They solve all sorts of game management issues. It's just that it doesn't make any sense, in the in-game physics that we have become familiar with. Hit points don't make any sense either, but we've built up (and been given) rationalizations for it. We don't have any rationale for healing surges, so it's causing a lot of cogitive dissonance.

In a way healing surges are similar to a vitality/wounds system, when you are healed you are trading hit points for a more permanent injury. That's why when you are out of surges the potion doesn't work; you are just too beat up, and need an extended rest. Of course it's not obvious from the name.

 

[Blackeagle]

Healing surges are such a bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad concept. Why did they pollute the game with this garbage?

Healing surges are an excellent concept. They allow healing abilities to be encounter powers without falling into the trap of unlimited combats per day.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Yes but can you really see a level 7 character dropping 1000gp for a single healing potion that heals 25hp, gives an extra save, but still costs a healing surge? Especially when a single surge at that level is going to probably be more then the 25hp you get from the potion.

Surges are the main form of healing in 4E, so every one counts when you are in between extended rests.

Yes, I can. In fact, my 8th-level rogue was grateful to have a potion or two in our last battle.

The minor action to drink a potion is a major advantage, easily worth the trade-off of the few HP I lost by not doing Second Wind. If I'd taken a standard action instead, I'd have been screwed.

Healing potions were one of the things I hated when I first read the rules. But having actually played with them, they work well as written. Any house rules to increase their effectiveness are, quite frankly, going to break them.

 

[helium3]

And when you're out of healing surges and the healing potion doesn't work...

... you should consider the "flee" option?

 

[helium3]

Yes, I can. In fact, my 8th-level rogue was grateful to have a potion or two in our last battle.

The minor action to drink a potion is a major advantage, easily worth the trade-off of the few HP I lost by not doing Second Wind. If I'd taken a standard action instead, I'd have been screwed.

Healing potions were one of the things I hated when I first read the rules. But having actually played with them, they work well as written. Any house rules to increase their effectiveness are, quite frankly, going to break them.

See, this is sort of what I expect. Some of the new rules look a little wonky but I figure they'll make sense once I see them in action.

Fer instance, I've heard (from you perhaps) that characters scrabble for every +1 bonus to attack and damage they can get. This makes all the seemingly piddly +1 bonuses to hit from various powers seem less piddly, though I still don't "grock" why this is.

With hit points, I'm getting the impression that each one should be considered a precious little gem to be carefully guarded, at this point. Is this because once you lose a hit point, it's much more difficult to get back until the end of the encounter?

Also, have you guys fought a beholder yet? That sucker (the level 19 one) has 900+ hit points. I'm having a hard time imagining how a level 19 party could kill one considering how little damage powers seem to do. Is the game all about finding the uber minor/move/standard action combos now?

 

[Blackeagle]

Fer instance, I've heard (from you perhaps) that characters scrabble for every +1 bonus to attack and damage they can get. This makes all the seemingly piddly +1 bonuses to hit from various powers seem less piddly, though I still don't "grock" why this is.

Same reason they got rid of varying BAB between classes, actually. In 4e the designers are trying to limit how widely different characters attack bonus varies, and keep the attack bonuses in relationship with defenses at all levels. If you start letting characters get lots of bonuses to attack then you end up with a situation where a character optimized for attack bonus will hardly ever miss (or if you raise monster defenses to compensate, an unoptimized character will hardly ever hit).

 

[Mouseferatu]

See, this is sort of what I expect. Some of the new rules look a little wonky but I figure they'll make sense once I see them in action.

This has proven to be the case with almost all--not all, but certainly the overwhelming majority--of the things I thought of as "problems" on my first read-through.

Fer instance, I've heard (from you perhaps) that characters scrabble for every +1 bonus to attack and damage they can get. This makes all the seemingly piddly +1 bonuses to hit from various powers seem less piddly, though I still don't "grock" why this is.

Wasn't me, and I wouldn't put it that strongly. But it's true that a +1 bonus means more in 4E than it did in 3E a lot of the time.

With hit points, I'm getting the impression that each one should be considered a precious little gem to be carefully guarded, at this point. Is this because once you lose a hit point, it's much more difficult to get back until the end of the encounter?

Again, I wouldn't put it like that. It's actually pretty easy to gain HP during an encounter, if you have the proper abilities/items/classes in the party. But the healing surge mechanic puts a hard cap on it, so you can't just continue indefinitely. Honestly, I love the combination.

Also, have you guys fought a beholder yet? That sucker (the level 19 one) has 900+ hit points. I'm having a hard time imagining how a level 19 party could kill one considering how little damage powers seem to do. Is the game all about finding the uber minor/move/standard action combos now?

Nope, not nearly. We have fought a few solo dragons, though. Partly, there's the fact that damage stacks up faster than you'd expect, since almost every attack power does damage even when it also does something else. But also, the trick to fighting solos? Conditions, conditions, conditions. If you can start stacking negative conditions on him, you've got a decent shot of winning. If not? Sound the retreat.

(Or at least, that's been my experience so far. I don't claim that every solo in every game is going to work that way.)

 

[silentounce]

Healing surges are actually a really good mechanic. They solve all sorts of game management issues. It's just that it doesn't make any sense, in the in-game physics that we have become familiar with. Hit points don't make any sense either, but we've built up (and been given) rationalizations for it. We don't have any rationale for healing surges, so it's causing a lot of cogitive dissonance.

In a way healing surges are similar to a vitality/wounds system, when you are healed you are trading hit points for a more permanent injury. That's why when you are out of surges the potion doesn't work; you are just too beat up, and need an extended rest. Of course it's not obvious from the name.

Yeah, that's the funny part, the healing potion no longer does anything for you, but if you take a nap for a few hours you'll be completely fine.

 

[Mirtek]

Also, have you guys fought a beholder yet? That sucker (the level 19 one) has 900+ hit points. I'm having a hard time imagining how a level 19 party could kill one

The same way a lvl 15+ party kills anything: stack a few armor decreases / hit increases and let the ranger one-shot him with cascade of blades