Heavy Armor Step Function

[KarinsDad]

Due to the recent math problems for offense and defense discussions, I decided to check out the math for heavy armor. I found something a bit problematic.

If one hands out +1 plate at level 3, +2 at level 8, +3 at level 13, etc., the number that a same level soldier needs to hit at each level are:

1 10
2 10
3 10
4 10
5 9
6 9
7 8
8 9
9 8
10 8
11 7
12 7
13 7
14 7
15 6
16 6
17 5
18 9
19 8
20 8
21 7
22 7
23 7
24 7
25 6
26 6
27 5
28 9
29 8
30 8

The problem I have is that there is gradual decline of 5 and then a huge jump of 4 at level 18 followed by gradual decline of 4 and then a huge jump of 4 at level 28 when the masterwork Warplate and Godplate are acquired.

I didn't put a shield, Shield Specialization or Armor Specialization into these equations because it doesn't change the jump. If the Fighter takes Armor Specialization Plate pre-level 18, it would still jump from 6 to 10.

I'm not too worried about the 8 at level 30 versus the 10 at level 1 because the Fighter will most likely take one or more specializations, gain a bonus at Paragon, or have other synergy bonuses to help out.

I'm more concerned about the gradual drop in AC with the player's PC getting hit easier and easier and easier, and then suddenly, bam, he's harder to hit for a few levels again. It might discourage the player, especially in the mid-Paragon and mid-Epic levels.

I consider the delta way too different between those levels.


I'm thinking of getting rid of Warplate and Godplate (ditto for chain and scale) and replacing them with 6 versions of plate. +1 plate adds +2, +6 plate adds +12.

So, the chart would become:

1 10
2 10
3 11
4 11
5 10
6 10
7 9
8 11
9 10
10 10
11 9
12 9
13 10
14 10
15 9
16 9
17 8
18 10
19 9
20 9
21 8
22 8
23 9
24 9
25 8
26 8
27 7
28 9
29 8
30 8

Thoughts on this?

 

[keterys]

It might be easier to just say 'Heavy Armor receives double the enhancement bonus to AC'...

If you add that in with a generic 'Everyone gets +1 to AC at paragon tier and +2 to AC at epic tier' which I've seen bandied about, could skip the masterworks entirely.

 

[KarinsDad]

It might be easier to just say 'Heavy Armor receives double the enhancement bonus to AC'...

If you add that in with a generic 'Everyone gets +1 to AC at paragon tier and +2 to AC at epic tier' which I've seen bandied about, could skip the masterworks entirely.

The problem with AC is not the heavy armor. It works reasonably well (except for the step function).

The problem with AC is that the light armor requires the PC to meet three conditions:

1) Have high ability score of Dex or Int in order to start it out high.

2) Max out Dex or Int every time.

3) Acquire the Leather Armor feat. Without having that, a PC will be totally screwed. Cloth Armor just does not mathematically work at all.

If a PC cannot (or does not) meet one or more of these conditions, his AC is screwed.

AC attacks are ~56% of all attacks. Any house rule to improve AC should only be used for Light Armor, not Heavy Armor.

My preference for the Light Armor rule is +1 AC at Paragon and another +1 AC at Epic. That way, Sorcerers (who use a secondary stat of Str or Dex for AC) at not totally screwed over, but Staff Wizards in Leather do not get AC out the ying yang.

A 30th level Soldier (+37) hits a starting Dex 16 pushed every time 30th level Sorcerer in +6 Starweave Cloth (AC 40) on a 3. The player pushed the stat every time and still gets hit by a same level creature on a 3.

 

[keterys]

3) Acquire the Leather Armor feat. Without having that, a PC will be totally screwed. Cloth Armor just does not mathematically work at all.

Sure it does - it's 2 worse. No better, no worse. It has some of the best bonuses of armor out there, so that may well be worth it to you. For example, Shimmering at low level, flight at higher level.

AC attacks are ~56% of all attacks.

Of all attacks with no consideration of source, sure - what are the percentage of attacks against the wizard in the back who avoids melee? I've seen some where it might be 20%.

Any house rule to improve AC should only be used for Light Armor, not Heavy Armor.

I wasn't suggesting an improvement to AC - I was suggesting a removal of masterwork by making it straight math.

A 30th level Soldier (+37) hits a starting Dex 16 pushed every time 30th level Sorcerer in +6 Starweave Cloth (AC 40) on a 3. The player pushed the stat every time and still gets hit by a same level creature on a 3.

And if he had leather, it'd be a 5, and if he was a rogue it'd be a 6...

Now a starlock who does Con and Cha and ignores Int, but also doesn't get heavy armor, otoh, is totally asking for trouble.

 

[KarinsDad]

Sure it does - it's 2 worse. No better, no worse. It has some of the best bonuses of armor out there, so that may well be worth it to you. For example, Shimmering at low level, flight at higher level.

The problem is that it does not protect. Getting hit on a 2 or a 3 or 4 in cloth is not protecting. It's not math balanced. It's math imbalanced.

The point of 4E was to have math balance so that PCs or NPCs would not nearly auto-hit or auto-miss.

The point of 4E was fun, not to sit there and never hit your foes or always get hit by your foes. That was a design goal. Cloth can easily fail the design goal.

Of all attacks with no consideration of source, sure - what are the percentage of attacks against the wizard in the back who avoids melee? I've seen some where it might be 20%.

Not at higher levels. There, the monsters can often teleport, or fly fast, or area effect the Wizard. Game balance should take into account lesser AC for the squishy types, but not 6 or 8 less. 2 less is fine, 3 less is fine, even 4 less is fine. Not 6. Not 8.

Changing the to hit odds from 50% to 80% or worse (basically based on class) is a huge design hole.

Squishy is already taken into account with fewer hit points, more difficulty in getting out of Grabs, etc.


It's a basic probability problem. Even if the Wizard only gets attacked 20% of the time overall, when a monster is in the Wizard's face, the Wizard is getting attacked 100% of the time and might be for several rounds. The 20% is not part of the equation at that point in time. Just because it only happens one round in five, it's still going to happen.

The Wizard has 75% of the hit points of the Fighter and if he gets hit 80% of the time instead of 50%, it means that the Wizard goes down (and might die) in 8/5 * 4/3 = more than twice as fast. If he gets hit 90% of the time, it's 9/5 * 4/3 = 2.5 times as fast.

With those odds, sooner or later it's going to happen.

 

[keterys]

There's definitely a problem in defense and attack scaling over level - absolutely.

That doesn't make your statement about cloth true. It just means they're all screwed. Needing a 5 to hit leather and a 3 to hit cloth is bad for both.

Now, a brute OTOH would need a... 9 and 7. And a skirmisher or controller a 7 and 5.

So, probably you're looking at a gap of, what, 3 or 4 to address across the board?

Like, it would be better and a more optimal play experience if a normal monster needs...

8 to hit Cloth
9 to hit Leather
10 to hit Hide or Chain
11 to hit Scale
12 to hit Plate

+2 if it's a Brute, +1 or +2 if target uses a shield, -2 if it's a soldier

That about right? (speaking purely from a hypothetical, not an actual, since clearly cloth and leather are currently 2 apart)

Edit: Just realized you misunderstood me - I'm not saying the wizard gets attacked 20% as often, I'm saying that _AC_ is targeted 20% of the time. That is, creatures hurl fireballs at him, or clouds of poison, etc. However many times the wizard is attacked, it's a lot less often AC than it is for a fighter.

Also, this would have made more sense in your other thread about math fixes. Guess I'll transfer the chart over there, oops.

 

[KarinsDad]

Btw, PHB II page 197 and 198 implements this house rule for heavy armors. The only difference is that they give +6 armor +1 more masterwork.

This is good. Instead of having a house rule, I can say to my group that we are using the heavy armor types in PHB II.

Additionally, this gives me quest options. Sure, the party Ritual PC can boost the +2/+2 AC up to +3/+2, but it's much better to go on a quest to find +3/+3.


Adventurer's Vault armor helped a little here, but not enough. PHB II did a better job.

 

[KarinsDad]

Edit: Just realized you misunderstood me - I'm not saying the wizard gets attacked 20% as often, I'm saying that _AC_ is targeted 20% of the time. That is, creatures hurl fireballs at him, or clouds of poison, etc. However many times the wizard is attacked, it's a lot less often AC than it is for a fighter.

If true (which I kind of doubt), that just makes it worse. Defense takes more of a beating than AC does.

I agree that a Fighter gets attacked more on AC, but I doubt a Wizard is 36% below the standard ~56% ratio. Maybe 40% of the time due to non-AC range, but not 20%.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Btw, PHB II page 197 and 198 implements this house rule for heavy armors. The only difference is that they give +6 armor +1 more masterwork.

This is good. Instead of having a house rule, I can say to my group that we are using the heavy armor types in PHB II.

Additionally, this gives me quest options. Sure, the party Ritual PC can boost the +2/+2 AC up to +3/+2, but it's much better to go on a quest to find +3/+3.


Adventurer's Vault armor helped a little here, but not enough. PHB II did a better job.

I'm not following you here at all... AFAICT all the PHB2 197 armor table does is recapitulate PHB1 and AV in a single table. PHB1 Godplate is +14/+6 for (+20) and it is the same in the PHB2 table, no change I can see.

The simplest solution I can see for the OP's observation is to simply allow higher level magic armors at slightly lower levels. If 18th level is a weak spot, then give them Legion Plate at 18th level. All it does is 'fill in' the dips. There is still a small general trend towards getting hit more often, but There is really nothing much you can do about that. The only way to fix it would be to introduce a +7 armor tier and a new set of masterworks to go with it.

The issue with the light armors I see this way. Light armor has certain advantages in terms of speed and checks, and encumbrance (assuming you ignore the bloated carrying capacities in the PHB). Fighters and such are the ones who will be using the heavy armors. They are also the most likely users of two-handed weapons, something they can afford to do because their armor already gives them better protection.

The squishies OTOH are benefitting from the good points of light armor, DO get hit on AC less often, and are more able to afford to use a shield in general without any tradeoff in offensive power. If they find it critically necessary to up their ACs they can boost up to hide without a giant penalty in feats.

The characters that have it rough are the 'chainmail' classes. They have an AC no better at high levels than a wizard in cloth. Granted they can make the same choice and bump up to plate. BRV fighters are of course the standard, and they make up for it with other advantages.

Overall I don't have a problem with the way things are. The game is designed to scale well, not to exactly reproduce the same math literally at every single level and for every single PC. Some variation is good.

 

[KarinsDad]

I'm not following you here at all... AFAICT all the PHB2 197 armor table does is recapitulate PHB1 and AV in a single table. PHB1 Godplate is +14/+6 for (+20) and it is the same in the PHB2 table, no change I can see.

Look at each one more carefully (PHB and PHB II):

+0, AC8 and AC8
+1, AC9 and AC9
+2, AC10 and AC11, 1 better
+3, AC11 and AC13, 2 better
+4, AC15 and AC15
+5, AC16 and AC17, 1 better
+6, AC20 and AC20

+2, +3, and +5 are better. From +2 through +5, each armor gives a +2 boost. +6 gives a +3 boost.

It boosts the sagging part of the scale during Paragon.

My system was:

+0, AC8 and AC8
+1, AC9 and AC10
+2, AC10 and AC12
+3, AC11 and AC14
+4, AC15 and AC16
+5, AC16 and AC18
+6, AC20 and AC20

+1 through +5 are better. From +1 through +6, each armor gives a +2 boost.

It boosts the sagging part of the scale as well.

Overall I don't have a problem with the way things are. The game is designed to scale well, not to exactly reproduce the same math literally at every single level and for every single PC. Some variation is good.

Precisely. It doesn't have to be exact, it just has to scale well.

Look at the first chart in the first post of this thread.

The PC gets hit 55% of the time at first level, but 80% of the time at 17th and 27th levels.

That by definition is not scaling well.

Look at the second chart in the first post. Much more stable. This is what PHB II does:

1 10
2 10
3 10
4 10
5 9
6 9
7 8
8 10
9 9
10 9
11 8
12 8
13 9
14 9
15 8
16 8
17 7
18 9
19 8
20 8
21 7
22 7
23 8
24 8
25 7
26 7
27 6
28 9
29 8
30 8

This too is much more stable. I just don't prefer that 6 at level 27, but meh. I can live with it if it means that I can use the armor in a published book. I'll just make sure I hand out Godplate by level 27 at the latest (which matches the PHB anyway).