Heavy Armor Step Function

[AbdulAlhazred]

Look at each one more carefully (PHB and PHB II):

+0, AC8 and AC8
+1, AC9 and AC9
+2, AC10 and AC11, 1 better
+3, AC11 and AC13, 2 better
+4, AC15 and AC15
+5, AC16 and AC17, 1 better
+6, AC20 and AC20

+2, +3, and +5 are better. From +2 through +5, each armor gives a +2 boost. +6 gives a +3 boost.

It boosts the sagging part of the scale during Paragon.

I think I just misunderstood what you were saying. This fix was put into AV, so PHB2 isn't really changing anything, it just presents (most) of the AV armor fix info integrated with the standard PHB1 stuff. I thought you meant they had actually changed some of the numbers.

The PC gets hit 55% of the time at first level, but 80% of the time at 17th and 27th levels.

That by definition is not scaling well.

Look at the second chart in the first post. Much more stable. This is what PHB II does:

1 10
2 10
3 10
4 10
5 9
6 9
7 8
8 10
9 9
10 9
11 8
12 8
13 9
14 9
15 8
16 8
17 7
18 9
19 8
20 8
21 7
22 7
23 8
24 8
25 7
26 7
27 6
28 9
29 8
30 8

This too is much more stable. I just don't prefer that 6 at level 27, but meh. I can live with it if it means that I can use the armor in a published book. I'll just make sure I hand out Godplate by level 27 at the latest (which matches the PHB anyway).

I think we define scaling a bit differently. The older editions didn't scale well, or one might argue really at all. 4e scales amazingly well, considering the huge range of power between 1st and 30th level. Also, you cannot really take armor in isolation. As other people have pointed out in various forums there are numerous other factors which interact to create overall balance and those factors are QUITE different at 30th level than at 1st level. Most commentators have pointed out situational bonuses and such, but just general overall PC access to many more tactical options at high levels, which no numeric system can capture, also count.

I think about it this way, a perfectly balanced system is not really the goal. If it was then WotC could have simply done away with all level scaling entirely. The goal is an interesting game, and making every expected success role identical at all levels doesn't seem to me to be the best route to that goal. More specifically than that, balance need not apply between the PCs and the monsters. It needs to apply between the PCs themselves so that they can all equally contribute to the game. In terms of monsters all that is required is that they be an interesting and challenging threat at all levels.

I think most of the 4e rules technicians (who seem to congregate on the boards) often lose sight of all this in their zeal for some kind of illusory mathematical perfection.

 

[KarinsDad]

I think I just misunderstood what you were saying. This fix was put into AV, so PHB2 isn't really changing anything, it just presents (most) of the AV armor fix info integrated with the standard PHB1 stuff. I thought you meant they had actually changed some of the numbers.

No, you are correct here.

For me, the only problem with the AV armors are Weavemail and Nagascale (IMO). Compared to the other armors, those armors gain something which is not necessary. They give up nothing in order to gain the +1 to Will and +1 to Fort respectively (+1 Will is half of a Paragon feat for free).

There are other AV armors that lose 1 AC in order to gain 2 Will or 2 Fort or to Resist, but I am not bothered by that since Will and Fort attacks are so much less frequent and resist stops only a fraction of damage. Something more frequent is lost to gain something more of something less frequent. To me, that is balanced. Weavemail and Nagascale are "bigger, badder, better". Extra gain for the sake of extra gain with no real regard to balance.

The advantage of the PHB II table (over the AV table) is that it presents all of the armors without the distraction for a DM of whether other benefits of the armor are balanced or not (if one ignores the * for Weavemail and Nagascale).

From the PHB II table, I can see at a glance that as a DM, I want to ignore the Weavemail and Nagascale extra bonuses and the rest of the table is totally ok. That's extremely easy to see.

It's much harder to see that in the AV tables without sitting and analyzing the armors one at a time. I must admit, I did not look carefully at the AV tables previously, but I now see that they are more or less identical to PHB II.

I think most of the 4e rules technicians (who seem to congregate on the boards) often lose sight of all this in their zeal for some kind of illusory mathematical perfection.

It's not illusory for the PHB heavy armor tables.

Dropping 1 or 2 on the chart above is no big deal. Nobody would be talking about that. Dropping 5 is a big deal. That's not scaling.

And that's precisely why WotC fixed it in AV and in PHB II. Until one sits and analyzes it, it's easy to just use the PHB numbers and have a TPK at mid-Paragon levels because of it.

 

[jeffh]

No, you are correct here.

For me, the only problem with the AV armors are Weavemail and Nagascale (IMO). Compared to the other armors, those armors gain something which is not necessary. They give up nothing in order to gain the +1 to Will and +1 to Fort respectively (+1 Will is half of a Paragon feat for free).

There are other AV armors that lose 1 AC in order to gain 2 Will or 2 Fort or to Resist, but I am not bothered by that since Will and Fort attacks are so much less frequent and resist stops only a fraction of damage. Something more frequent is lost to gain something more of something less frequent. To me, that is balanced. Weavemail and Nagascale are "bigger, badder, better". Extra gain for the sake of extra gain with no real regard to balance.

Is there any reason not to just price them / place them in treasures as though they were a level or two higher and call it a day?

 

[KarinsDad]

Is there any reason not to just price them / place them in treasures as though they were a level or two higher and call it a day?

I could, but I do think that +1 more Will is worth more than a level or two.

+1 to all 3 defenses only occurs every 5 levels via the magic items.

And, this +1 armor bonus to my knowledge stacks with everything. Feats, enchancement bonuses, etc.

So, I prefer to drop the bonus +1, not have it exist in my game and call it a day.