Heighten Spell + another Metamagic feat

[mikebr99]

I really hate having to say "Well the sage said X so that's official, I guess I was wrong." because it is so unsatisfying.

I will try to make this my last attempt to explain the feat (at least in this thread) and how it stack by MY interpretation of what the PHB says.

Since the various meta magic feats do not "see" each other when they are applied to a spell there can be no order of operation precedence. An empowered maximized fireball is the same as a maximized empowered fireball.

So you have a base spell, Burning Hands. You maximize it, this requires the caster to use a slot three levels higher. Everyone agrees up to this point.

Now you also want to heighten it. You heighten it by three levels. This has two effects, it raises the actual spell level by three spell levels at a cost of requiring a slot three levels higher.

So caster Ned is maximizeing and heightening and the result is that burning hands is now a fourth level spell in a seventh level slot because the three slot raises from the maximize and the three levels from the heighten combine.

That said, I think they could have done a better job wording the heighten feat.

Also, you are free to change it in your game. While I think it would be unbalancing it would be a rather small imbalance.

Give the Govenor a "Harumph!"


Mike

 

[apsuman]

edit: multiple post.

 

[apsuman]

edit multiple post

 

[apsuman]

Good thing there was an official answer to clear it up because the rule as written isn't very good. Unfortunately, that moves heighten spell from being of about equal benefit as other metamagic feats back down to being about the least useful. Some people will still get it, but only because they can also get a few of the better ones and they think that a sorcerer casting with a full-round action is offset by the +1 or +2 DC. I just know that I'll probably never pick it up. I didn't mention the higher spell slot since the sorcerer is already going to be doing that out of necessity. The thing is, that is a drawback of the sorcerer that they need to do that so often. Using the feat only lessens the drawback... and not by much.

Not all feats are supposed to be equal. Quicken is useless to a sorcerer so it too is unequal. Just because you would never take it does not mean the useful and fun character concepts wouldn't really utilize the feat.

And, a sorcerer is only going to be using a higher spell slot for one of two reasons, 1) he has exhausested all of the spell's normal spell slot, or 2)he is wuppin' up some meta magic on the spell. Ergo, I am in contention with your assertion that "sorcerer is already going to be doing that out of necessity". There are lots of good spells that simply benefite from the higher save. I have mentioned charm person several times. A 20th level wiz/sor against a 20th level fighter, has a VERY effecive spell with a heightened charm person in a ninth level slot.

Also, you said "The thing is, that is a drawback of the sorcerer that they need to do that so often." which is contrary to every sorcerer I have played.

 

[Lamoni]

True - it would be smart to Heighten it to 6th level instead of just preparing it there. This is not what I meant about it being "free".

Wizard decides to heighten a spell from level 1 to level 4. The "cost" is a 4th level spell slot.

I was just saying that this happens seldom... maybe it happens more often in your games. I think that much more often, the most useful spell to use is at a level that is all used up (playing a sorcerer) so you cast the spell in a higher level slot. That is when heighten is used most often and in that case it is almost 'free' except for the added cost of a full-round action.

True, you could just pick a spell and decide to cast it as a level 4 spell rather than level 1. There might be a case where this might be beneficial... but in most cases a different 4th level spell would be more effective. In the cases where the 1st level spell is a better choice, in most cases it is still better to cast it AS a 1st level spell and preserve the 4th level slots for your 4th level spells. If you did decide to use the feat this way, it appears to be less 'free' since you are only raising the level because you want the higher DC.

So, either it is used in a way where its application is almost free (like Thanee's example of how it is useful for sorcerers). Or it is almost useless except in rare situations that may come up once every 20 gaming sessions.

Since this topic is over 26 pages on the official forum I don't expect any resolution here. The Sage clarified and people will either agree or disagree and some of us will end up using a house rule, just like every other rule in the game

I don't expect any resolution either. I just wanted to point out that the argument of being 'free' isn't a very good excuse for why it shouldn't be allowed. You could also compare the feat to many fighter feats that are useful MUCH more often, and always offer the benefit with no cost except for the feat.

The argument of, The Sage said this so therefore that isn't allowed is perfectly acceptable, but we already established that many posts ago. We have moved on to discussing the balance of it. I don't really think that it belongs in house rules unless the incredibly long thread about Psionics being balanced with other core classes also belongs in house rules. I know that you didn't say that it did belong there... It was just hinted at a few times by a few posters.

 

[IceBear]

I don't expect any resolution either. I just wanted to point out that the argument of being 'free' isn't a very good excuse for why it shouldn't be allowed. You could also compare the feat to many fighter feats that are useful MUCH more often, and always offer the benefit with no cost except for the feat.

But you are misunderstanding my problem with "free".

Circumstance 1: Heighten a 1st level spell to 4th level: Cost = +3 spell levels

Circumstance 2: Heighten a maximized 1st level spell: Cost = 0 levels

Why should it be "free" in #2 and not #1? That's not consistent, and (besides all the mistakes in the rules) the spirit of 3E was to be consistent (higher is always better, etc).

As for the fighter feats, that's apples and oranges. Those are General feats, these are metamagic. Most metamagic feats "cost" you the feat and then the spell slots to use them. I believe both Monte and Sean both said that this dual cost makes metamagic feats unattractive. I agree that your way of using Heighten helps make it more attractive, but then the other metamagic feats are even more unattractive. In the context of metamagic feats, I don't like the idea of getting something for nothing (which is what happens if you use it this way with other metamagic feats) and thus why I feel it's not in the spirit of the rules.

All the other metamagic feats give you something by adding X levels to the spell slot used. The wording of Heighten is very vague, but there is no doubt in my mind what the intent of the feat is is to make a spell become a level X spell at the cost of +Y slots (where Y is the difference between level x and the original level).

 

[Thanee]

I suppose that's my point in continuing this thread - to generate discussion. Am I the only one who sees fault in the Sage's ruling? Why go out of your way to invalidate a feat, when the use (as written!) isn't unbalancing in the least?

Bye
Thanee

 

[Lamoni]

Not all feats are supposed to be equal. Quicken is useless to a sorcerer so it too is unequal. Just because you would never take it does not mean the useful and fun character concepts wouldn't really utilize the feat.

I realize that every feat wasn't written to be equal with every other feat, but are you saying that if all feats were equal, it would be unbalancing?

And, a sorcerer is only going to be using a higher spell slot for one of two reasons, 1) he has exhausested all of the spell's normal spell slot, or 2)he is wuppin' up some meta magic on the spell. Ergo, I am in contention with your assertion that "sorcerer is already going to be doing that out of necessity".

I was ignoring example 2 because that wasn't ever debated as being a good candidate for a heightened spell. Example 1 was what I was talking about. Maybe it isn't out of necessity, but the nature of sorcerers means limited spell selection. They find themselves much more often in the situation where their highest level slots don't have useful spells for the situation at hand so they get used up with lower level spells once those lower slots are used up. Or maybe they used up all their 3rd level slots with damage spells, then later in the day they need to use a 3rd level utility spell. They'd have to use a higher spell slot. That is part of the life as a sorcerer. Therefore heighten spell allows for a 'free' increase in the DC when the sorcerer is using up a higher level slot anyway.

There are lots of good spells that simply benefite from the higher save. I have mentioned charm person several times. A 20th level wiz/sor against a 20th level fighter, has a VERY effecive spell with a heightened charm person in a ninth level slot.

I wasn't disputing that there were benefits. I just don't think that I'd want to give up any 9th level spell slots for that charm person. Casting it as a 1st level means a DC of 8 less, or a 40% greater chance of the opponent succeeding on their saving throw... but it is still just using a 1st level spell and by heightening it to 9th level there is only a 40% chance that it will even make any difference in the outcome. A nice benefit, but still makes a difference less than half the time at the cost of a spell slot 8 levels higher.

Also, you said "The thing is, that is a drawback of the sorcerer that they need to do that so often." which is contrary to every sorcerer I have played.

I think that it is a drawback of the sorcerer that they have a limited spell selection. Due to the limited spell list, they resort to useing spells in higher level slots more often than wizards. This is a drawback... not a large drawback, but the heighten spell feat mostly minimizes this drawback by allowing the spells to at least have a higher DC for using up the higher level slot.

 

[IceBear]

I think we can agree here that the way metamagic feats work (the cost vs the gain) makes them all pretty unattractive. Some more than others. What did Monte do in AU with them? If he did something better I'll probably use that instead.

 

[Thanee]

Thanee made it pretty clear that there was no interest in discussing it further once a decision was made.

I actually havn't seen anything yet to devalidate what I have written.

Instead people come up with stuff like this:

Quit bringing up the rule that metamagic stacks.

You probably refer to the rule, that the levels stack. Ok, so I should quit bringing up the rule for applying multiple metamagic feats in a discussion about applying multiple metamagic feats... sounds like a plan!

And here's your explanation:

But if you take a 2nd level spell, add +2 to the spell slot from a metamagic feat, add another +1 to the spell slot just because you wanted to, and added +3 to the effective level you end up with a spell that starts at 2nd level and becomes a 5th level spell. You still stack all increases to the spell slot.

And the change of the spell slot, that Heighten Spell applies?
Where is that gone to suddenly?

Where does it say, that Heighten Spell is the only metamagic feat in existance, which has not to apply the change in spell level here?

It doesn't change the spell slot?

So why do you have to use a 4th level spell slot when you use Heighten Spell to raise the spell level to 4th?

It doesn't raise the spell level?

Well, but it quite clearly says it does.

Heighten Spell does not match the effective level with the spell slot level!
Heighten Spell increases the spell slot level and the effective level is raised by the same amount!

A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal.
Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell it modifies.

The increase in effect is a secondary benefit of Heighten Spell, a direct result of the increase in spell level.

BTW, if it would work your way, then the same would be true for all metamagic feats.

For example: Empower Spell states, that an empowered spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell's actual level. Maximize Spell states, that a maximized spell uses up a spell slot three level higher than the spell's actual level. So applying both you use up a spell slot that is both two levels higher and three levels higher, which a spell slot that is three levels higher than the actual spell's level nicely conforms to.

A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal.

That's nothing else... it uses up a spell slot X levels higher than the spell's actual level, but since it also changes the effective level, it actually becomes a higher level spell for all purposes. That still doesn't free it from the rule of cumulative level stacking.

Bye
Thanee