Heighten Spell + another Metamagic feat

[rushlight]

Ok, so if you Maximize a spell, (say Burning Hands) then it fills a slot 3 levels higher - in this case, a 4th level slot - but it remains a 1st level spell for DCs and whatnot.

What if you have Heighten Spell? Can you also Heighten it to 4th level so you get the benefits of the Maximize plus the higher spell level? Or must you Heighten it to a level higher than the previously applied feats?

 

[dcollins]

Burning Hands + Heightened to 4th level + Maximized = a 7th level slot.

 

[Dyntheos]

I had thought that adding the heighten spell feat allows you match up spell levels for the effective slot you are using.

As such a 1st level spell using a maximise feat makes it a use a 4th level slot. It still however is a 1st level spell. Adding the heighten feat then makes it a 4th level spell in terms of DC's etc.


The SRD states that "The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level." The maximised 1st level spell has an effective level of 4th, so therefore a heightened version is as difficult to prepare and cast as a 4th level spell not a 7th.

 

[Liquidsabre]

Right dcollins has got it.

 

[cidak]

I would apply it the other way around. You heighten a spell to 4th level making it as difficult to cast as a 4th level spell then maximise it adding another 3 levels.

Though I see where the problem lies. One feat talks about actual level (maximise) and the other effective level (heighten). The issue then becomes that if you are able to do that (combine the two for a new 4th level spell), why bother having heighten spell at all? Why not change the DC's etc for all meta magic feats. I think the intent is there for the two to stack, even if it is not clear in the rules.

 

[rushlight]

Burning Hands + Heightened to 4th level + Maximized = a 7th level slot.

Can you point me to the location where that information can be found? My players will want to see some book reference.

 

[Zodar]

My interpretation:

Heighten spell makes the spell 4th level for calculating DC etc. and makes you use the new level to prepare and cast it.

SRD: The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.

Maximising this spell makes it use 7th level slot, though, as it uses a spell slot 3 levels higher than the spell's actual level (which you have modified to 4th by heightening it).

SRD: Multiple Metamagic Feats on a Spell: A spellcaster can apply multiple metamagic feats to a single spell. Changes to its level are cumulative. You can’t apply the same metamagic feat more than once to a single spell.

You cannot use two metamagic feats on a spell and only apply the leveladjustment of one feat.

 

[rushlight]

My interpretation:

Heighten spell makes the spell 4th level for calculating DC etc. and makes you use the new level to prepare and cast it.

SRD: The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.

Maximising this spell makes it use 7th level slot, though, as it uses a spell slot 3 levels higher than the spell's actual level (which you have modified to 4th by heightening it).

SRD: Multiple Metamagic Feats on a Spell: A spellcaster can apply multiple metamagic feats to a single spell. Changes to its level are cumulative. You can’t apply the same metamagic feat more than once to a single spell.

You cannot use two metamagic feats on a spell and only apply the leveladjustment of feat.

I suppose the order of application is what's important here. If you have a 1st level spell and apply Maximize, you add +3 levels for a 4th level spell. Heighten says "The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level." If your spell is effectively 1st level (which a 1st level Maximized spell is) and you use a 4th level slot to memorize the spell, then you've Heightend it to 4th level.

If you are required to apply the Heighten feat first, THEN the Maximize - then I can see why it's 7th level. Is this a rule somewhere?

 

[Creeperman]

The order of operations is ambigous here. IMC, I've always allowed Heighten to be applied last, after another metamagic. It makes the feat actually useful, because no one in his right mind would want to heighten a spell for a trivial save DC increase when he can just cast a "real" higher-level spell and benefit from higher damage caps and still get the higher DCs. It also encourages metamagic as a whole, which I think is fair for the two (or more) feats you've spent on it.

 

[Dyntheos]

the metamagic feats allow lower level spells to have comparative power for thier level equivilents. a 4th level buring hands with increased DC's seems about right for a 4th level spell and not on par with a 7th level spell such as delayed blast fireball or prismatic spray.

Minimum level to cast a 7th level variant of burning hands stacking the feats is 13th level.

At 13th level a mage would do 20 points of damage. Delayed blast fireball also a 7th level spell deals out 13d6, the average damage being twice the damage of the burning hands and in a larger area of effect and it has the bonus of a timer. Clearly the superior spell.

Now looking at making the spell a 4th level equivilent it still deals 20 points of damage as the minimum caster level for 4th level spells is 7th level. Then take a heightened fireball at 4th level which does 7d6, for an average slightly higher (21 against 20) than the burning hands.

In the first example the 7th level Burning hands is clearly not even in the ball park when comparing effects of camparable spells, whereas in the second example the damage is spot on for a 4th level spell.