Heighten Spell + another Metamagic feat

[Thanee]

"A heightened spell has a higher spell level..."

"The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level..."

So, a heightenend burning hands spell (what a pointless example! ) is - in fact - a 4th level spell.

Why should maximize work any different on this 4th level spell, than on any other?

[Sidenote: A better example would be a heightened tasha's hideous laughter, it's the primary benefit of heighten to increase the save DC of a spell (making it less vulnerable to level dependant effects, like the globe of invulnerability, is a minor benefit in most cases, but can be good, of course).]

Now you have a 4th level spell.

A maximized 4th level spell is a 7th level spell.

I won't argue, that using a 7th level slot on a heightened (+3) maximized burning hands spell is a complete waste of resources, in fact, it is.


This works the other way around as well... a maximized burning hands is a 4th level spell, you can heighten it by 3 to scale it up to 7th level (a maximized 4th level spell).

You surely won't argue, that an empowered maximized quickened spell only uses up a slot 4 levels higher, so why should heighten be any different?

The cost for heighten is applied for heighten, and for heighten alone.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Dyntheos]

Why should maximize work any different on this 4th level spell, than on any other?

because it's a 1st level spell that takes up a 4th level slot. Something which seems to be confusing people here. The spell is still a first level spell.

You surely won't argue, that an empowered maximized quickened spell only uses up a slot 4 levels higher, so why should heighten be any different?

because heighten works differently from other metamagic feats, as per it's description.

tashas is a poor example because you cannot maximise it, and this discussion is about combining heighten with other metamagic feats that work on variables. tashas cannot be maximised.

This is of course an interpretation of the rules issue, as it could be taken either way. I do think your reasoning and examples though are flawed.

 

[The Souljourner]

You're confusing effective level with spell slot. A maximized burning hands uses a 4th level slot, but its effective level is 1. Now heighten it to 4th, and its effective level is 4th, but with maximize it uses a 7th level slot.

Slots and effective levels are not the same thing. Effective level is the level that is used for all "level of spell" based checks (like DCs, effect vs. globe of invulnerability, etc).

The problem is, WoTC made heighten different from the rest of the metamagics, and didn't write it clearly enough. They should have just said something like "A heightened spell uses a slot one higher than normal. Unlike other metamagics, this does affect the spell's effective level for the purposes of DC, etc. You may apply heighten spell multiple times to the same spell."

Anyway, while I agree it would be a lot more useful if it worked the other way... it doesn't.

-The Souljourner

 

[Thanee]

You are wrong. A maximized 1st level spell is not a 1st level spell. It's a 4th level spell.

EDIT: Eh, The Souljourner has been sneaking in between our posts...
His explanation with effective level and actual level (i.e. slot used) is good, tho!

A 4th level spell which works like a 1st level spell in some cases (save DC, globes, etc), but it's still a 4th level spell.

What's flawed about this?

"A heightened spell has a higher spell level..."

"The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level..."

And just because Tasha's doesn't work with maximize, you can still use extend or anything else, that makes a difference... I was just stating, that using heighten on burning hands has no point.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Liquidsabre]

I was just stating, that using heighten on burning hands has no point.

Sure it does, heightening burning hands increases the DC for the reflex save.

 

[Thanee]

Wow!

I meant a real point, not some artificial, almost neglectible change.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Dyntheos]

You're confusing effective level with spell slot. A maximized burning hands uses a 4th level slot, but its effective level is 1. Now heighten it to 4th, and its effective level is 4th, but with maximize it uses a 7th level slot.

Slots and effective levels are not the same thing. Effective level is the level that is used for all "level of spell" based checks (like DCs, effect vs. globe of invulnerability, etc).

The problem is, WoTC made heighten different from the rest of the metamagics, and didn't write it clearly enough. They should have just said something like "A heightened spell uses a slot one higher than normal. Unlike other metamagics, this does affect the spell's effective level for the purposes of DC, etc. You may apply heighten spell multiple times to the same spell."

Anyway, while I agree it would be a lot more useful if it worked the other way... it doesn't.

-The Souljourner

I am just taking it straight out of the rules you even did the addition yourself but failed to see what you wrote. So I'll break it down for you

A maximized burning hands uses a 4th level slot, but its effective level is 1.

Correct

Now heighten it to 4th, and its effective level is 4th, but with maximize it uses a 7th level slot.

How can you add maximise twice?

In your example you add it once to gain the 4th level slot, then after maximising it you add it again. You say it yourself "It's effective level is one" AFTER you use maximise. When you then add heighten to it and it changes it's effective level from one to 4.

I mean hell you proved my own point then proceeded to tell me it was wrong?

I find it amusing that alot of members here tend to have thier own interpretation of the rules and state it as gospel. You are stuck on adding heighten first then adding maximise to further increase it. There is nothing in the rules stating that is how it works, quite the contrary it talks about effective level and slots, something in which It's clear to me you can't seem to grasp.

again with the SRD quote

Benefit: A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.

The spell in this case is a burning hands spell. - It's a first level spell.
It's now being modified by a maximise feat. - It's STILL a first level spell. (even though it uses a fourth level slot)
Now you add Heighten to change it from a 1st level spell to a 4th level spell.

Nowhere in the description of that feat does it state you MUST heighten a spell first before adding another metamagic feat. Something which it would appear most people are hell bent on doing.

Please show me the mystical text you are all reading that tells me this? Because I sure as hell can't find it.

 

[rushlight]

It seems that if you have the Heighten feat, and you take a 1st level spell (that takes up a 1st level slot) and you Heighten it to 1st level (which is legal - Heighten simply makes a spell in a slot act like a spell of that slot's level) then that 1st level spell acts like 1st level. If you do the same to a 4th level spell (and Heighten it to 4th level) then the same logic applies.

As pointed out by Dyntheos (and the text of the feat), Heighten Spell makes the effective level equal the level of the slot in which the spell is placed. So if you've memorized a 1st level spell in a 4th level slot (say you really, really need to cast Burning Hands alot!) then it's just a 1st level spell since it's effective level = 1 (although it's in a 4th level slot). If you've Maximized the spell from 1st to 4th, then it's still just a 1st level spell since it's effective level = 1 (although it's in a 4th level slot). Possession of the Heighten Spell feat would allow you to make that spell's effective level = 4 - which someone who spent that feat for something like Craft Wonderous Item wouldn't be able to do.

Anyway, I see no problem allowing a Heightened, Maximized 1st level spell being 4th level. After all, you've spent 2 feats (which are more precious than gold!) to make your 4th level spell act like a 4th level spell.

Not to mention, it really seems the only worthwhile use of the Heighten feat...

 

[Thanee]

Nowhere in the description of that feat does it state you MUST heighten a spell first before adding another metamagic feat. Something which it would appear most people are hell bent on doing.

Ah, now I see where you are coming from at least!

Let's see...

HEIGHTEN SPELL [METAMAGIC] Benefit: A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.

Multiple Metamagic Feats on a Spell: A spellcaster can apply multiple metamagic feats to a single spell. Changes to its level are cumulative. You can’t apply the same metamagic feat more than once to a single spell.

"Changes to its level are cumulative."

Applying Heighten Spell to burning hands to turn it into a 4th level spell, is a +3 level change. Applying Maximize Spell to burning hands is also a +3 level change. Cumulative means, you have to add those together, so 3+3=6 the total metamagic modifier is +6, thus the 1st level spell is turned into a 7th level spell (with an effective level of 4, thanks to being heightened).

Bye
Thanee

 

[rushlight]

"Changes to its level are cumulative."

Applying Heighten Spell to burning hands to turn it into a 4th level spell, is a +3 level change. Applying Maximize Spell to burning hands is also a +3 level change. Cumulative means, you have to add those together, so 3+3=6 the total metamagic modifier is +6, thus the 1st level spell is turned into a 7th level spell (with an effective level of 4, thanks to being heightened).

Bye
Thanee

Ahh, but there are issues here that are different than the usual "This feat adds +2 that feat adds +3 for a net +5" metamagic feats. Perhaps you should read that as "Changes to the slot level required are cumulative" - since that's what it actually means. The standard application of metamagic feats only change the slot level - not the effective level. So you can see there are actually two distinct discriptors for a spell. The slot level it requires and the effective level of the spell (as it pertains to DCs and the like). (As noted on PHB pg. 88, under "Effects of Metamagic Feats on a Spell: In all ways a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell.")

Applying a standard metamagic feat only increases the slot level (and all increases to a slot level are indeed cumulative). The Heighten spell feat is different, as it affects the effective level of the spell - which, of course cannot be higher that the slot level, but can be lower than the slot level in a variety of circumstances. The use of Heighten Spell when combined with another metamagic feat should increase BOTH the slot level (ex. Maximizing a spell) and it's effective level (when Heightened). When the feats are combined, both statistics fall into line - and in our example the spell becomes a 4th level spell for all intents and purposes.